Knots / Spey

Hey Gordy and Group,

I view the Uni Knot as a concept which may be used in many different ways, from snelling a hook to a fly line to leader knot. One of my favorite uses is for the Double Uni Knot, in which two Uni Knots slide into each other, tying two lines together like a blood knot. This is a great knot for lines of varying diameter or for super braid to mono. My point is, that even though a Double Uni Knot slips until it tightens, it's still just two Uni Knots. The Duncan's Loop is the same thing; tightening it does not make it a new knot. I could do the same thing with any number of knots. If I leave a Clinch Knot only partially tightened is it a different knot? I don't think so. I do suspect that the slipping nature of the Duncan's Loop has the tendency to decrease the breaking strength of the line being slipped upon, however.

Cheers.

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Chase .. I agree on all counts. Strength is not a problem when used for the loop (s) in the heavier segments of the leader. Firstly, the tippet breaks first. Second; the uni loops higher up on the leader usually don't slip down. It's when they slip that they are more likely to break.

Lefty's knot studies are extensive. He has concluded that all knots slip just before they break. He may well be correct about that.

I had two uni loops in my leader 3 days ago when I caught a tarpon which taped out at 130 lbs. (Also used a new variation on a Bimini Twist by Lewis Hinks. More on that one, later.)

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Jim.... I wasn't aware that proper anchor placement included the choice of placement of the fly behind the caster. Let's ask our THCI's about that one.

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Proper anchor placement is in front of a line drawn across the body and through the casters shoulders. Shoulders rotate and so this line rotates. If the anchor is behind this line the D loop cannot be fully supported by the rod tip and is likely to collapse. Of course it is possible on seeing that happen to speed up and deliver the cast just as it is possible to make a less than perfect back cast and compensate. A caste of two wrongs making a right! Whether an anchor appears to be behind the caster or not depends on where you are looking from!

Ally Gowans

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Ally.... Interesting way of looking at it ! Gordy

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From Pete Humphreys:

Hello Gordy,

In my mind there is a definite STOP with all spey casts. Higher line speed "touch and go anchor" casts like the single spey, switch/forward spey and the snake roll require only a split second pause to allow the D loop to form but there is a definite, very purposeful STOP of the rod. The pause length after the stop changes depending on the length of head, casting style and the chosen spey cast depending on line speed. Generally the longer the head length, the longer the pause to allow more time for the D loop to develop to its max potential behind the rod tip. Faster line speed - less pause. Slower line speed - longer pause.

Most students I teach have a good understanding of single hand overhead casting, so I tell students to think of the D loop as the BACK CAST. The typical beginner spey caster (same as single hand students) make a weak, soft back cast and then hammer the forward cast - to quote Lefty "you can't make a good forward cast until you make a good back cast" so spey students must watch their D loop forming to understand what a good one looks like just as a single hand student must look at their back cast.

We know the fly line in the D loop, combined with the anchor, provides mass and tension to bend the rod to deliver the forward cast - same principle as the back cast with overhead and a single hand rod. With a overhead cast we know we must have a abrupt stop to allow the rod to unload, then we pause while the fly line loop has time to almost straighten out on the back cast before we begin the forward cast. We load and unload the rod on both forward and back casts and a spey cast is exactly the same. You can't unload the fly rod to generate a dynamic, strong D loop unless we STOP the rod at the firing position.

The only cast I am aware of that has no stop is a Belgium cast.

There is one cast that I know where the anchor lands behind the caster and that is a "reverse" or "down stream" snap T, but it is not a required cast for the THCI. All casts for the THCI are anchor points in front of the caster.

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From Ally Gowans: (I had sent this previously, but a malfunction prevented many of you from receiving it.) ... Note his Chart in the attachment which I have forwarded :-

Hi Gordy,

Gosh lots of words about what amounts to very little because the roll cast family is really not so complicated.

There is the strict definition of the roll cast which is what many of us call the basic roll cast, let us not get fixated by it. Then there is the possibility to make other types of roll cast dynamically, two forms exist. Both forms require a D loop and an anchor of minimum water contact compatible with sufficient resistance to allow the caster to load the rod against a mass of line in the D loop.

With the first form (Picked Up), whether or not the rod is stopped at the rear extremity the object is to clear (lift) as much line as possible from the water and into the D loop prior to completing the cast. There is no possibility to make a large change of direction and if a change of direction is required it is made by prior repositioning the line – line layout would be the FFF term for this I think and the cast is completed with the roll cast element, usually dynamic. So the cast is made by picking up as much line as possible in the air to form a D loop – minimising water contact – and completing the cast. Various casts use this simple “pick up and go” – pick up as much line as possible into the D loop and go complete the cast – Double Spey, Snap T, Circle C, Snap Z, all of the Skagit line casts are examples. The “snap” casts are two cast combinations of course whilst the Double Spey is just a case of laying the line out correctly and making the roll cast. The change of direction is always planned and executed before the roll cast is made.

The second form (Dropped) is even more dynamic in that it allows a change of direction to be made if desired within the casting movement. Here we place the Switch, Single Spey and Snake Roll casts. So the cast is made by picking up all of the line and repositioning it, as much line as possible in the air to form a D loop – minimising water contact – and completing the cast.

Two different routes to achieving the same physical situation, minimum water contact and maximum D loop!

The difference between the Switch and the Single Spey is simple, the Switch is made without turning the D loop and so the cast goes straight whilst the Single Spey is rotational and the D loop is re-aligned. The Snake Roll incorporates the Switch Cast, here the rod tip rotates to re-align the line and whist that is going on the a Switch cast is made.

No contradiction in my language because all of these casts apart from the basic roll cast consist of a roll cast and few added ingrediants.

My only issue with Gordy’s definition - A live line, aereolized, change of direction, modified roll type cast. Is that “aerialised” is misleading because some water contact is necessary. And if accept that the Roll cast is little modified we can omit the “modified”. And if we accept that a line is not “live” we have a “Change of direction Roll Cast”. Here is a lovely candid extract from “The Angler’s Cast” (1960 – Herbert Jenkins - London) by Capt T L Edwards and Eric Horsfall Turner both quite brilliant casters and indeed Edwards was the World Professional Salmon fly distance champion. After describing how to make a basic Roll cast:

“We have now given a clear picture of the roll cast and the way in which it should be executed. That means, for practical purposes, that we have grounded the novice in the basic actions of the so-called Spey cast; and, since the name is so firmly based on traditional usage that he will use it for his angling life, we shall ourselves use it when discussing the roll cast, with change of direction. We see no objection to use of the term to differentiate between a straightforward roll, and a roll with a distinctive feature for a special purpose; but, for the reasons we have given, we are opposed to surrounding the simple roll-cast-plus, so to speak, with a technology which obscures the slight difference and creates a mystic something which is in truth no mystery at all.”

Whist the rod tip movement is all roll casts should be part elliptical I think that we should take care not to confuse with elliptical back casts which do not belong here. Roll and Spey cast do not have back casts – that is how they avoid hitting trees.

I am attaching a chart that shows what the Roll cast family for single handed rods may look like but I am sure that a few of the relatives are missing!

Best wishes,

Ally Gowans