Troy....
I do like that, "being a statue" teaching tool.
One way of looking at creep is that it is movement of the rod tip in a direction opposite that of an unrolling loop which shortens the available (potential) stroke length.
Sensing that he doesn't have enough stroke length left, the caster compensates by adding a spike of power during the remaining stroke which makes the rod tip dip and then return. Of course, this yields the concavity in the tip path which results in the tail.
Two other ways of curing the creep which I find very effective are:
1.) A back DRIFT after the completion of the back cast stroke. The back drift can be considered a direct opposite of creep, since it is motion of the rod tip in the direction of an unrolling loop which increases potential stroke length.
2.) "Lefty's stab"
One thing I've noted in advanced casters trying for more distance, is the appearance of CREEP in a backward direction immediately after completion of the forward cast. Of course, this shortens the available back cast stroke length. This decreases the efficiency of the back cast but rarely results in a tail partly because most casters don't muster a sufficient spike of power during the back cast stroke, and often open their back cast loops as well as slightly changing rod planes as the back cast begins. Any one of those things will help prevent a tail on the back cast. I came up with the term, REVERSE CREEP to describe that in an article I wrote for the Loop a while back. It's a fault often missed by instructors. I see it most often when I coach good casters who are MCI candidates.
Gordy
From: "Miller, Troy" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Rispin, Phil" <PhilipRispin@xxxxxxxx>, "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jerry Puckett" <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>, "Ron Mc Quary" <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>, "Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>, "Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>, "Dennis Burns" <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Marshall Lasswell" <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>, "Rusty Dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>, "Keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>, "Steve Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "James Russell" <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>, "Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>, "Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>, "Dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>, "Clay Roberts" <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>, "Stacy Trimble" <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Steve Barlow" <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "John Deardorff" <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "David Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>, "Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>, "Don McCurry" <donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Kevin Hensley" <jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>, "Ronnie Ray" <Ronnie.Ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Ryan watters" <rwatters11@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "David Brydon" <david.brydon@xxxxxxx>, "Ray Emerson" <wacovet@xxxxxxxxx>, "Alan Seals" <aseals12@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: Week 4/17 quiz
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:55:51 -0500
Phil ?
While some of the results that you note can occur due to creep, what we refer to as creep happens AFTER the stop. The caster may make a perfectly good stroke and stop, but then unintentionally reposition the rod (either translationally or rotationally) in the direction of the upcoming stroke. Most people think of it happening between the backcast and the forecast (while the backcast is unrolling), but it can happen in either direction. The negative effect of creep is that it generally shortens the potential stroke length on the next casting stroke. Depending on the length of line being cast, this may result in the caster consciously or subconsciously ?overaccelerating? the rod ? trying to gain required speed in ?too short? a casting stroke. Creep becomes increasingly problematic as the length of the cast gets longer. As you said in your message below, creep often results in tailing loops. As the length of line out increases, so should our stroke length. If the tip moves X feet during the stroke in one direction, then why would we want to stroke several feet less during the stroke in the opposite direction?
I first ask my students if they?ve ever heard the term ?creep?. Then I ask them to borrow their rod and show them what I mean ? in slo-mo. I show specifically the shortened ?future stroke?. Then I do it at normal speed, and show the resultant tail. To correct it, I ask them to ?BE A STATUE? after the stop. That is, to hold position until the loop unrolls and it?s precisely time to begin the next stroke. That phrase ?be a statue? is something that I can repeat over and over during a class, and not really direct the command to anyone. Everyone benefits from frequently hearing it. And they carry it with them when they go home to practice.
With more advanced students, we get into the biomechanics of flexor and extensor muscles and the push vs. pull parts of the stroke, and how drift (negative creep) can actually benefit our casting if we still maintain SLP.
One thing we need to be cautious about -- intentional repositioning of the rod to alter the SLP on shorter casts is NOT a casting flaw. There are several justifiable reasons to move the rod during the pause, even in a direction other than ?drift?. What might some of those reasons be?
Regards -- TAM
-----Original Message-----
From: Rispin, Phil [mailto:PhilipRispin@letu.edu]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 8:40 AM
To: Allen Crise; Rod Henderson; Jerry Puckett; Ron Mc Quary; Wes Hodgson; Gary Eaton; Travis Burt; Sonny Hinojosa; Dennis Burns; Marshall Lasswell; jeff jackson; Rusty Dunn; John Till; Dale Connally; Gordon Hill; Keith Richard; Steve Hollensed; Ron Allen Thomas; Matt Wilhem; LC Clower; Ken Cole; james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx; James Russell; Harry Boyd; Gary Wood; Don DeRidder; Dave Speer; Clay Roberts; cindy Alexander; Stacy Trimble; Steve Barlow; John Deardorff; David Bradley; Miller, Troy; Harvey Harris; Don McCurry; Kevin Hensley; Ronnie Ray; Ryan watters; David Brydon; Ray Emerson; Alan Seals
Subject: RE: Week 4/17 quiz
Good morning Allen,
Hope you are enjoying your trip to Aransas Pass.
Creeping becomes a problem when the student/caster doesn't have a definite acceleration to an abrupt stop either in the forward cast or the back cast. For some people who apply a lot of power/accel early in the casting stroke then deceleating to a stop this means tailed loops, and infamous "wind knots". For those who are not accelerating the line much at all it can mean line piled up in front of them or on the ground behind them, as the rod tip finishes its motion moving down either in front of the caster or behind.
To correct this when I teach I take the student back to a discussion of what he/she is trying to accomplish emphasizing the concept of "accelerate-stop on both the back and forward casts. Then we take the rod and demonstrate/practice the concept while doing short side arm casts close to the ground watching how the line behaves when we accelerate-stop and then again while we do it the wrong way and "creep". Finally I ask the student to use his/her thumb and fingers at the end of the casting stroke by pushing with the thumb and pulling with the little finger and ring finger as the last part of the acceleration of the rod tip. This seems to help them concentrate on speeding the rod tip up to a definite "Stop" finishing the acceleration phase of the forward cast.
Of course this doesn't always work and you have to find other ways to get the student to fix this problem. At times it takes a hands on approach actually manipulating the students arm hoping they will begin to feel the timing and acceleration stop concept.
Phil Rispin
From: Allen Crise [mailto:flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 5:35 PM
To: Rod Henderson; Jerry Puckett; Ron Mc Quary; Wes Hodgson; Gary Eaton; Travis Burt; Sonny Hinojosa; Dennis Burns; Marshall Lasswell; jeff jackson; Rusty Dunn; John Till; Dale Connally; Gordon Hill; Keith Richard; Steve Hollensed; Ron Allen Thomas; Matt Wilhem; LC Clower; Ken Cole; james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx; James Russell; Harry Boyd; Gary Wood; Don DeRidder; Dave Speer; Clay Roberts; cindy Alexander; Stacy Trimble; Steve Barlow; John Deardorff; David Bradley; Troy Miller; Harvey Harris; ol Al; Don McCurry; Kevin Hensley; Ronnie Ray; Ryan watters; David Brydon; Ray Emerson; Alan Seals; Rispin, Phil
Subject: Week 4/17 quizHowdy Gang of fly line flingers.
Here is some thing to think on...
Your student has a problem with Creeping.
What is creeping?
What does it do to most casts?
How do you cure it? (How many ways can you think of)
Next weekend I will be in Aransas Pass, TX doing a little saltwater fishing and a class or two at Slowrides guide service 'Yak Shak' on Saturday. If you can make it there be sure to say Howdy. quiz might be late.
Happy Easter.
ol Al
Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
SOC VP of Education
Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
2508 A County Road 1011
Glen Rose, TX 76043
254-897-2045
geocities.com/rrdoctor
flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx