ol Al....
Unless I missed it, none of responses pointed out the most damaging effect of CREEP except for you and Troy. That is that creep shortens the available (potential) stroke length.
A very important concept. When creep shortens the stroke length, the caster ends up with too short an available stroke for the amount of line carried. As the caster senses that something is wrong, he/she applies a compensatory spike of power during the stroke. This makes the rod tip dip down and then return (since that amount of acceleration can't be continued). This produces a concave path of the rod tip and a wave in the line which, when propagated out beyond the rod tip, causes the fly leg of the loop to cross over the rod leg. THAT IS A TAILING LOOP !
The, "cure" is to lengthen the potential stroke length. This can be done by:-
1.) Back drift. (as the loop unrolls.)
2.) A "Lefty's Stab"
3.) A true understanding by the caster to avoid moving the rod tip in the direction of the cast while the loop is still unrolling. This can be done without a drift or a stab by holding the rod tip still until the loop has unrolled.
4.) The caster can avoid the tail by not using the spike of power during the stroke. That will, however, result in the cast not achieving the desired distance coupled with a poor layout.
5.) One way of making a slack line cast is to do just that....ie. to purposely creep and avoid the power spike. I don't recommend doing it that way, because it's hard to control, so the slack line doesn't always end up where it's needed.
This is important enough that I'll also CC it to our Group.
Gordy
From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry Puckett" <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Mc Quary" <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>,"Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>,"Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis Burns" <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell" <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty Dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"Keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"Steve Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,<james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"James Russell" <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"Dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay Roberts" <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble" <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow" <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"John Deardorff" <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"David Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"Troy Miller" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Don McCurry" <donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Kevin Hensley" <jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ronnie Ray" <Ronnie.Ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ryan watters" <rwatters11@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"David Brydon" <david.brydon@xxxxxxx>,"Ray Emerson" <wacovet@xxxxxxxxx>,"Alan Seals" <aseals12@xxxxxxxxx>,"Phil Rispin" <PhilipRispin@xxxxxxxx>,"Mary Rohrer" <Mary Rohrer [mary_l_rohrer@xxxxxxxxx]>
Subject: Just a little late
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:22:45 -0500
Howdy gangGreat trip to the Texas Coast. few fish not big. Spring tides and dirty water. Still a good trip.I high lighted the words that were not what I wanted...In purpleLast week I asked:Here is some thing to think on...Your student has a problem with Creeping.What is creeping?What does it do to most casts?How do you cure it? (How many ways can you think of)From RodAl the way I understand creep is moving the rod tip in the opposite direction of the unrolling loop, obviously before the rod is fully loaded. The consequence would be in adequate power following the creep. Lack of power could be the direct result, but the student might try to compensate for this by speeding up or lengthening the following stroke or widening the casting arc. This would result in an even greater likelihood of continuing the same fault.The limited number of people I've worked with, I have tried to get the student to feel the rod load prior to initiating the opposing stroke. If the student has a tough time with this, I will overline the rod for a while so they can get a better feel OR try to get them to close their eyes to enhance the feeling aspect of the loading as opposed to anticipating the load and prematurely heading the opposite direction. I'm sure their are others but these were off the top of my head.From JerryCreep is starting either the forward cast or back cast before the fly line completely unrolls. It shortens the casting stroke creating the possibility of tailing loops. Expensive in terms of lost flies snapped off. MORE COMMON ON THE BACKCAST BECAUSE ONE IS NOT WATCHING THE CAST. Cure starts with recognition of cause. Creep can range from significant to the subtle of even inches or less. One can extend the stroke and wait patiently while WATCHING the line unroll before starting the cast. One possible cure is to drift with the backcast and follow through with the forward cast-- same principle, different terms, while reaching in the direction of the cast as the line unrolls. Principle being if one is reaching in the direction that the line is unrolling then one cannot creep in the opposite direction.Also a term used in the past by several of my girl friends. I still have no idea of what they were talking about. JerryFrom PhilCreeping becomes a problem when the student/caster doesn't have a definite acceleration to an abrupt stop either in the forward cast or the back cast. For some people who apply a lot of power/accel early in the casting stroke then deceleating to a stop this means tailed loops, and infamous "wind knots". For those who are not accelerating the line much at all it can mean line piled up in front of them or on the ground behind them, as the rod tip finishes its motion moving down either in front of the caster or behind.To correct this when I teach I take the student back to a discussion of what he/she is trying to accomplish emphasizing the concept of "accelerate-stop on both the back and forward casts. Then we take the rod and demonstrate/practice the concept while doing short side arm casts close to the ground watching how the line behaves when we accelerate-stop and then again while we do it the wrong way and "creep". Finally I ask the student to use his/her thumb and fingers at the end of the casting stroke by pushing with the thumb and pulling with the little finger and ring finger as the last part of the acceleration of the rod tip. This seems to help them concentrate on speeding the rod tip up to a definite "Stop" finishing the acceleration phase of the forward cast.Of course this doesn't always work and you have to find other ways to get the student to fix this problem. At times it takes a hands on approach actually manipulating the students arm hoping they will begin to feel the timing and acceleration stop concept.PhilFrom RonWhat is creeping?
Creeping is an early movement of the rod in the direction of the next stroke without a sufficient load on the rod.What does it do to most casts?As the cast is made and Creeping occurs, the rod travels in the stroke without a load. No load on the rod, No transfer of energy to the fly line. Yes, there is a load on the rod, but this comes by way of the casters application of power during the stroke. The absence of the weight of the fly line on the rod to sufficiently load the rod, causes the line to overtake the rod tip with little or no speed. The line just piles in front of or behind the caster, depending on the trajectory.How do you cure it? (How many ways can you think of)Creeping can easily be cured, give the line time to unroll. If we are casting 30 ft of line, it would be easy to use the term "One Mississippi / Two Mississippi" to help to prevent creeping. But, as our stroke lengthens, arc widens, and distance increases, we will need to develop a sensory perception of the lines' tug or pull on the tip.You'll have Troy's response to PhilWhile some of the results that you note can occur due to creep, what we refer to as creep happens AFTER the stop. The caster may make a perfectly good stroke and stop, but then unintentionally reposition the rod (either translationally or rotationally) in the direction of the upcoming stroke. Most people think of it happening between the backcast and the forecast (while the backcast is unrolling), but it can happen in either direction. The negative effect of creep is that it generally shortens the potential stroke length on the next casting stroke.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++My CommentsSo What is Creep? The movement of the rod opposite direction of the unrolling loop.What happens? Most often a short stroke and the tailing loop.What can you do to cure it? "Hold" or "Drift" I use drift. I have the student track the loop with the tip of the rod. This causes the rod to "drift" back and will take care of the Creeping some of the time.Can you creep on the pick up? Yes if you start with the rod too high you get the same problems.Some times the hardest to identify of problems that we see. Some are such good casters that they can correct the short stroke. or the creep is so small that you just do not see it.Now if the caster is shooting line into the backcast you can bet that he will have a short stroke because they have more line to cast. Longer line, longer stroke. This is one of the common problems in shooting line into the backcast. YOU have to drift the rod back to get the longer stroke to make the same cast.So to sum up."COMMON CREEP": Is moving the rod forward on the backcast before the loop unrolls. Giving you a short stroke. results in over powering what stroke you have left. Might see a tailing loop.Cure: Hold the rod still after the back cast stop or Drift back with the rod tip pointing at the loop until the leader is in the loop.Ol Al