Jeff...
Good description !
Gordy
From: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
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Subject: Re: STYLE
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:31:21 -0700
Gordy,
Swoop as defined in distance casting circles would be:
A dipped down path to the rod hand during the casting stroke (or for more a
visual it would be a saucer shape, or shallow wide U shape). In some casters
this is to keep a straight path to the rod tip during the distance stroke. It
has been proven to be very succsseful to several casters that use it. Debate
could be made as to if this is giving the greatest load in the rod as compared
to an arcing or even straight path to the hand.
I think rereading the below messages you have forwarded will give a greater
insight.
Thanks Gordy!!
--
Jeff Wagner
Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
Redington Pro Staff
970-481-5887
jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.dhflyfishing.com
Quoting Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>:
>
>
> Jeff.... Good descriptions. For the sake of some of our later
>comers, could you define the term, "SWOOP" ? (It'll help keep us
>all on the same page, especially since this is one of the terms
>which doesn't appear in the fly casting literature of the
>past.......as far as my reading has taken me.)
> Gordy
>
>-------------------------
>From: /Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
>To: /WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>/
>CC: /Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
>Subject: /Re: STYLE/
>Date: /Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:15:56 -0700/
>Walter,
>
>I appreciate this conversation.
>
>Please note when watching the video that the stroke length is 5ft,
>center of the
>stroke is over the center of mass between my right and left feet.
>Center in
>this image would be just about where my right shoulder and slightly
>back to the
>center of my body. The forward stroke is almost a mirror image of
>the back
>stroke, I know this from tests done on bruces casting analyzer. I
>have 100%
>symmetry of speed and similar marks on everything else.
>
>I like to think of rotation in the stroke the same way I think of
>acceleration
>in the stroke. The peak toward the end of the stroke, as does the
>haul. If
>you look very closely you will note that the rotation is about
>perpendicular at
>the half way mark in the cast, the center of the body. that means
>about 90
>degrees of rotation have occured thus far this is the loading
>portion the
>rotation. But the speed is not there. The other 90 degrees is very
>quick and
>includes a great deal of translational movement. This is truly an
>accelerated
>acceleration as Gordy puts it. As we have acceleration from the the
>translational movement and the increase in angular velocity which is
>an angular
>acceleration creating a very deep bend in the rod. While some early
>rotation is
>happening, and happens on my great casters I have video of and is
>very ordinary
>is part of the loading move. The nuts and bolts of this cast are at
>the very
>end where the angular rotation and linear movement work together and
>at an
>accelerated rate to a stop.
>
>The rod of course loads from the beginning of the backcast. That is
>where
>tension is being applied and to the rod tip by the mass of the line
>and other
>factors. this happens in every cast. It has nothing to do with the
>rotation. The early rotation is basically the setup for the later
>rotation and the
>greatest load in the rod.
>
>In your third paragraph you refer to the swoop of the hand in
>distance casting. This is an effective move for some. The swoop
>holds some merit as a great deal
>of casters use it. I actualy use to cast very simlar to that and
>before that I
>cast much like lefty and before that I had my own version. My style
>is in a
>constant state of flux, as should most great casters styles be in a
>flux. As
>you getter and improve in strength timing, speed, stamina,
>flexibility,
>technique the style needs to grow with the caster over time. A
>reason why so
>many casters "reconstruct" their style after casting seriously for
>some time. One note about the swoop is if the exact same rod is used
>a swooping style will
>have less rod load than an arcing style. I am sure you know why.
>But, it is
>because for the tip to move in a straight line the arcing style
>would have to
>have the rod flexed more. Especially in two casters that one uses
>the swoop
>and the other uses a arc with a slight lift at the end. The arc with
>a lift
>pinches that tip over so far and creates such a large load it stores
>a great
>deal of energy. Something that if you look at the video closely you
>can also
>see. And interesting little move, not often spoke of. But the swoop
>takes
>advantage of this, but with slightly less efficiency. But, who is to
>argue
>with guys getting a great deal of distance from the swoop. However,
>if you
>look at their cast closely more is going on than just a dipped down
>hand path.
>
>I do change my stroke significantly as I change distance. Good
>observation. I
>think this can be noted from watching Rick Hartman, and other great
>distance
>casters. The 5wt distance forces you to do that. And improves the
>short line
>casting. However, the template for the stroke does not change. What
>I mean is
>the basic movement of the hand through the cast is very similar
>whether casting
>20 feet or 120 feet. The difference is the stroke length, pause,
>timing, etc.
>etc. As well as some body movement.
>
>Interesting stuff!
>
>--
>Jeff Wagner
>
>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>Redington Pro Staff
>970-481-5887
>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>www.dhflyfishing.com
>
>Quoting WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>:
>
>>Jeff - I prefer to think of your style as extreme rather than just
>>exaggerated. :)
>>
>>The diagram does show exactly what is happening in your forward
>>cast
>>but if you look at the video with the close up from your casting
>>side
>>in slow motion I think you will see that you are getting a lot
>>of rotation early in the back cast. Maybe it only appears to be
>>this
>>way because the video is two dimensional not three dimensional. My
>>guess is that it has nothing to do video artefacts and it is
>>actually
>>the way you are casting.
>>
>>I'm not criticizing your stroke. In fact, I think the early
>>rotation
>>is definitely right for you. Two things tell me this. The first is
>>your results. The second, and more importantly, is the fact that
>>the road
>>starts to load from the beginning of the back cast and continues to
>>load smoothly all the way to the stop AND you are maintaining a
>>straight
>>line path of your rod tip in spite of the extreme casting arc. The
>>video from behind confirms this because the line doesn't just shoot
>>into the back slide - its more like the fly end of the line is
>>connected
>>to a fast moving truck and is being ripped through the guides in a
>>nice,
>>straight, horizontal path. The line almost appears to be rigid
>>rather
>>than flexible (quite awesome - again thanks for sharing the
>>videos!).
>>
>>I think one of the reasons this is correct for you is that you have
>>what I would call a "classic" stroke as taught by Joan Wulff, the
>>Borgers, and others. Your rod hand starts the back cast near
>>shoulder
>>level and rises upwards to around the top of your head during the
>>stroke.
>>Because your hand path is angled upward during the back cast you
>>need to
>>get extra compression of the rod to achieve a nearly horizontal slp
>>of the
>>tip compared to someone whose hand path is horizontal. In fact, if
>>we look
>>at some casters who use a horizontal hand path you will actually
>>see a
>>slight dip of the hand during their rotation.
>>
>>Now if you were casting distances of 40 - 60 feet you aren't going
>>to be
>>using a nearly 180 degree casting arc and you aren't going to be
>>using
>>the extreme thrust that you use in your distance cast. You wouldn't
>>be
>>starting your back cast with the rod nearly horizontal so the rod
>>would
>>load without rotation (pretty hard to start loading the rod when it
>>starts horizontal without some rotation). This is what I find very
>>interesting
>>in watching your stroke - the idea that you are probably changing
>>the
>>stroke to match the distance in a way that I haven't seen described
>>in
>>any of the literature I've read. We've all heard that for a long
>>cast
>>the stroke increases, the arc increases, and the pause increases
>>but the
>>idea that there may be other changes in the basic casting stroke is
>>one
>>I haven't heard.
>>
>>Again - this is getting beyond the realm that most casters should
>>know
>>or worry about.
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Walter
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Date: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:16 pm
>>Subject: Re: STYLE
>>
>>>Walter,
>>>
>>>Interesting comments!
>>>
>>>In conversations with other instructors the style I use is EXACTLY
>>>the style
>>>they teach. If you look at my style it is not as you describe
>>>being
>>>different,
>>>it is just exagerated. It is very similar to what Joan Wulff and
>>>many
>>>instructors teach, just longer, more pause, etc. Actually there
>>>is
>>>very little
>>>rotation that happens early in the stroke, the diagram sent along
>>>with
>>>it proves
>>>that.
>>>
>>>It seems as though we are on very similar planes when talking
>>>about teaching a
>>>style. Style is very individual so it is good to hear you may
>>>encourage your
>>>students to try other styles.
>>>
>>>Actually in a conversation with Peter Lami this morning, who casts
>>>almostexactly as I do and teaches the same style, we will be
>>>teaming to together to
>>>co-teach the class I mentioned on style.
>>>
>>>Thanks for your time, this is an interestin conversation.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>
>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>Redington Pro Staff
>>>970-481-5887
>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>
>>>
>>>Quoting Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>:
>>>
>>> > Hi Jeff! This is going to be a bit long winded - bear with me.
>>> >
>>> > I hope I wasn't saying your style is wrong (or gave that
>>>impression)
>>> > - far from it. Your
>>> > style is obviously working as measured by the results. I was
>>>trying
>>> > (probably poorly) to make
>>> > the same point you were making - your style on the back cast
>>>(early
>>> > rotation followed
>>> > by extended thrust) would be discouraged by most casting
>>>instructors
>>> > but it works
>>> > very well for you.
>>> >
>>> > Your haul is continuous during the cast but because you rotate
>>>early
>>> > and very quickly the
>>> > haul during this part of the cast is short. It can't be any
>>>other way
>>> > because the time
>>> > period is very brief. You then finish your back cast with an
>>>extended
>>> > thrust, some
>>> > additional rotation, and the remainder of the haul. I'm sure
>>>there
>>> > are biomechanical
>>> > reasons for your particular style. The other thing about this
>>>is
>>>that
>>> > you are "casting
>>> > on the edge". You're no longer looking for ways to get 10% or
>>>5%
>>>improvement> into your casting. I'm sure that if you found a way
>>>to add 1% at this
>>> > point you would
>>> > be very happy. This is a basic fact in any sport where time,
>>> > distance, or height is
>>> > measured. There is a basic limit to what the human body can do.
>>>When
>>> > someone is
>>> > getting "close to the edge" of that limit then we really see
>>> > individual styles, based
>>> > on biomechanical differences, come in to play. Athletes with
>>>long
>>> > arms and flexible
>>> > joints take advantage of an exaggerated stroke. Athletes with
>>>short arms take
>>> > advantage of leverage and explosive movement. Regardless of
>>> > individual differences there
>>> > willl always be certain things that have to remain true -
>>>muscle
>>> > power has to be applied
>>> > in a certain order suited to the athlete. You don't use the
>>>weaker
>>> > muscles at the same
>>> > time as the stronger muscles because the weaker muscles limit
>>>the
>>> > stronger muscles. An
>>> > example is a weight lifter cleaning a weight (lifting a barbell
>>>from
>>> > the floor to their shoulders).
>>> > They don't try to do this with the arms and legs simultaneously
>>> > because the arms would
>>> > limit the lifting power of the legs. The sequence of events is
>>>to
>>> > start lifting with the legs bent,
>>> > feet flat on the floor, back straight and almost upright, arms
>>> > hanging straight down. Begin lifting with
>>> > the legs because those are the strongest muscles. Next the back
>>>is
>>> > used, followed by calf muscles,
>>> > and finally the arms. There is no point starting with the arms
>>> > because they simply couldn't get the
>>> > weight moving - they are only capable of slowing down the
>>>affect
>>>of
>>> > gravity and helping the
>>> > lifter slip under the weight. Many beginners, however, start
>>>the
>>>lift
>>> > with the arms or may
>>> > even use the back in place of the legs (a sure way to get
>>>injured).
>>> > You can start with your arms
>>> > or back for lighter weights but as the weight increases this
>>>becomes
>>> > impossible.
>>> >
>>> > A coach or trainer needs to help the athlete develop a style
>>>that
>>> > makes the most efficient
>>> > use of the athlete's natural abilities. In the example of the
>>>weight
>>> > lifter no coach in the world
>>> > is going to tell the athlete to start the lift with their arms
>>>but
>>> > there are subtle differences
>>> > regarding when and how long certain muscle groups are applied
>>>in
>>>a
>>> > lifting movement that
>>> > can be brought into play. Before a coach can help the athlete
>>>develop
>>> > these attributes though
>>> > it is necessary for the athlete to learn some basic truths. In
>>>weight
>>> > lifting you want the start of
>>> > the clean to be straight up - trying to lift at an angle
>>>decreases
>>> > the effectiveness of the muscles.
>>> > In fly casting the rod tip needs to move in a straight line and
>>>the
>>> > loops have to be tight or
>>> > you are not getting an efficient cast.
>>> >
>>> > In your case the average fly caster would look at your stroke
>>>and,
>>> > based on what the average
>>> > fly caster is told about casting in the one or two lessons they
>>>may
>>> > have had, would say that you are
>>> > doing everything wrong. Because your cast is so fast, for
>>>example,
>>> > they would assume your
>>> > rod tip is not travelling in a straight line (how could it be
>>>with an
>>> > almost 180 degree casting
>>> > arc?) or they would say you are stopping in the wrong place and
>>>using
>>> > way too much wrist
>>> > because all of the stuff happens way to fast to see with the
>>>naked
>>> > eye. I had to slow down
>>> > your video considerably before I realized much of your rotation
>>>on
>>> > the back cast is done
>>> > early in the cast and that what may look like drift is actually
>>>thrust.>
>>> > Now the real crux of the matter. If I, as an instructor, had a
>>> > beginning caster that
>>> > demonstrated similar style (ignore the haul because a beginning
>>> > caster wouldn't be
>>> > hauling - just concentrate on the idea of an early rotation
>>>followed
>>> > by a long
>>> > thrust) would I discourage him from casting this way?
>>> >
>>> > This is a bit of a trick question - I specifically included the
>>>word
>>> > "discourage" because
>>> > of its negative connotation. Personally, I would never
>>>discourage a
>>> > student from trying
>>> > anything but I would certainly get them to try a more
>>>"standard"
>>> > casting style to begin
>>> > with - i.e. open the wrist only a small amount and at the end
>>>of
>>>the
>>> > back cast, not at the start.
>>> > Students should be encouraged to experiment and find what works
>>>for
>>> > them but I believe that
>>> > they should first learn the basic casting stroke.
>>> >
>>> > Sorry for the long windedness.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers
>>> >
>>> > Walter
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>