Jeff.... Good descriptions. For the sake of some of our later
comers, could you define the term, "SWOOP" ? (It'll help keep us all
on the same page, especially since this is one of the terms which
doesn't appear in the fly casting literature of the past.......as far
as my reading has taken me.)
Gordy
-------------------------
From: /Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
To: /WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>/
CC: /Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
Subject: /Re: STYLE/
Date: /Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:15:56 -0700/
Walter,
I appreciate this conversation.
Please note when watching the video that the stroke length is 5ft,
center of the
stroke is over the center of mass between my right and left feet. Center in
this image would be just about where my right shoulder and slightly
back to the
center of my body. The forward stroke is almost a mirror image of the back
stroke, I know this from tests done on bruces casting analyzer. I have 100%
symmetry of speed and similar marks on everything else.
I like to think of rotation in the stroke the same way I think of
acceleration
in the stroke. The peak toward the end of the stroke, as does the haul. If
you look very closely you will note that the rotation is about
perpendicular at
the half way mark in the cast, the center of the body. that means about 90
degrees of rotation have occured thus far this is the loading portion the
rotation. But the speed is not there. The other 90 degrees is very quick and
includes a great deal of translational movement. This is truly an accelerated
acceleration as Gordy puts it. As we have acceleration from the the
translational movement and the increase in angular velocity which is
an angular
acceleration creating a very deep bend in the rod. While some early
rotation is
happening, and happens on my great casters I have video of and is
very ordinary
is part of the loading move. The nuts and bolts of this cast are at the very
end where the angular rotation and linear movement work together and at an
accelerated rate to a stop.
The rod of course loads from the beginning of the backcast. That is where
tension is being applied and to the rod tip by the mass of the line and other
factors. this happens in every cast. It has nothing to do with the
rotation. The early rotation is basically the setup for the later
rotation and the
greatest load in the rod.
In your third paragraph you refer to the swoop of the hand in
distance casting. This is an effective move for some. The swoop holds
some merit as a great deal
of casters use it. I actualy use to cast very simlar to that and
before that I
cast much like lefty and before that I had my own version. My style is in a
constant state of flux, as should most great casters styles be in a flux. As
you getter and improve in strength timing, speed, stamina, flexibility,
technique the style needs to grow with the caster over time. A reason why so
many casters "reconstruct" their style after casting seriously for
some time. One note about the swoop is if the exact same rod is used
a swooping style will
have less rod load than an arcing style. I am sure you know why. But, it is
because for the tip to move in a straight line the arcing style would have to
have the rod flexed more. Especially in two casters that one uses the swoop
and the other uses a arc with a slight lift at the end. The arc with a lift
pinches that tip over so far and creates such a large load it stores a great
deal of energy. Something that if you look at the video closely you can also
see. And interesting little move, not often spoke of. But the swoop takes
advantage of this, but with slightly less efficiency. But, who is to argue
with guys getting a great deal of distance from the swoop. However, if you
look at their cast closely more is going on than just a dipped down
hand path.
I do change my stroke significantly as I change distance. Good observation. I
think this can be noted from watching Rick Hartman, and other great distance
casters. The 5wt distance forces you to do that. And improves the short line
casting. However, the template for the stroke does not change. What I mean is
the basic movement of the hand through the cast is very similar
whether casting
20 feet or 120 feet. The difference is the stroke length, pause, timing, etc.
etc. As well as some body movement.
Interesting stuff!
--
Jeff Wagner
Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
Redington Pro Staff
970-481-5887
jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.dhflyfishing.com
Quoting WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>:
Jeff - I prefer to think of your style as extreme rather than just
exaggerated. :)
The diagram does show exactly what is happening in your forward cast
but if you look at the video with the close up from your casting side
in slow motion I think you will see that you are getting a lot
of rotation early in the back cast. Maybe it only appears to be this
way because the video is two dimensional not three dimensional. My
guess is that it has nothing to do video artefacts and it is actually
the way you are casting.
I'm not criticizing your stroke. In fact, I think the early rotation
is definitely right for you. Two things tell me this. The first is
your results. The second, and more importantly, is the fact that the road
starts to load from the beginning of the back cast and continues to
load smoothly all the way to the stop AND you are maintaining a straight
line path of your rod tip in spite of the extreme casting arc. The
video from behind confirms this because the line doesn't just shoot
into the back slide - its more like the fly end of the line is connected
to a fast moving truck and is being ripped through the guides in a nice,
straight, horizontal path. The line almost appears to be rigid rather
than flexible (quite awesome - again thanks for sharing the videos!).
I think one of the reasons this is correct for you is that you have
what I would call a "classic" stroke as taught by Joan Wulff, the
Borgers, and others. Your rod hand starts the back cast near shoulder
level and rises upwards to around the top of your head during the stroke.
Because your hand path is angled upward during the back cast you need to
get extra compression of the rod to achieve a nearly horizontal slp of the
tip compared to someone whose hand path is horizontal. In fact, if we look
at some casters who use a horizontal hand path you will actually see a
slight dip of the hand during their rotation.
Now if you were casting distances of 40 - 60 feet you aren't going to be
using a nearly 180 degree casting arc and you aren't going to be using
the extreme thrust that you use in your distance cast. You wouldn't be
starting your back cast with the rod nearly horizontal so the rod would
load without rotation (pretty hard to start loading the rod when it
starts horizontal without some rotation). This is what I find very
interesting
in watching your stroke - the idea that you are probably changing the
stroke to match the distance in a way that I haven't seen described in
any of the literature I've read. We've all heard that for a long cast
the stroke increases, the arc increases, and the pause increases but the
idea that there may be other changes in the basic casting stroke is one
I haven't heard.
Again - this is getting beyond the realm that most casters should know
or worry about.
Cheers
Walter
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:16 pm
Subject: Re: STYLE
Walter,
Interesting comments!
In conversations with other instructors the style I use is EXACTLY
the style
they teach. If you look at my style it is not as you describe
being
different,
it is just exagerated. It is very similar to what Joan Wulff and many
instructors teach, just longer, more pause, etc. Actually there
is
very little
rotation that happens early in the stroke, the diagram sent along
with
it proves
that.
It seems as though we are on very similar planes when talking
about teaching a
style. Style is very individual so it is good to hear you may
encourage your
students to try other styles.
Actually in a conversation with Peter Lami this morning, who casts
almostexactly as I do and teaches the same style, we will be
teaming to together to
co-teach the class I mentioned on style.
Thanks for your time, this is an interestin conversation.
--
Jeff Wagner
Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
Redington Pro Staff
970-481-5887
jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.dhflyfishing.com
Quoting Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>:
> Hi Jeff! This is going to be a bit long winded - bear with me.
>
> I hope I wasn't saying your style is wrong (or gave that
impression)
> - far from it. Your
> style is obviously working as measured by the results. I was
trying
> (probably poorly) to make
> the same point you were making - your style on the back cast
(early
> rotation followed
> by extended thrust) would be discouraged by most casting
instructors
> but it works
> very well for you.
>
> Your haul is continuous during the cast but because you rotate
early
> and very quickly the
> haul during this part of the cast is short. It can't be any
other way
> because the time
> period is very brief. You then finish your back cast with an
extended
> thrust, some
> additional rotation, and the remainder of the haul. I'm sure
there
> are biomechanical
> reasons for your particular style. The other thing about this is
that
> you are "casting
> on the edge". You're no longer looking for ways to get 10% or 5%
improvement> into your casting. I'm sure that if you found a way
to add 1% at this
> point you would
> be very happy. This is a basic fact in any sport where time,
> distance, or height is
> measured. There is a basic limit to what the human body can do.
When
> someone is
> getting "close to the edge" of that limit then we really see
> individual styles, based
> on biomechanical differences, come in to play. Athletes with
long
> arms and flexible
> joints take advantage of an exaggerated stroke. Athletes with
short arms take
> advantage of leverage and explosive movement. Regardless of
> individual differences there
> willl always be certain things that have to remain true - muscle
> power has to be applied
> in a certain order suited to the athlete. You don't use the
weaker
> muscles at the same
> time as the stronger muscles because the weaker muscles limit
the
> stronger muscles. An
> example is a weight lifter cleaning a weight (lifting a barbell
from
> the floor to their shoulders).
> They don't try to do this with the arms and legs simultaneously
> because the arms would
> limit the lifting power of the legs. The sequence of events is
to
> start lifting with the legs bent,
> feet flat on the floor, back straight and almost upright, arms
> hanging straight down. Begin lifting with
> the legs because those are the strongest muscles. Next the back
is
> used, followed by calf muscles,
> and finally the arms. There is no point starting with the arms
> because they simply couldn't get the
> weight moving - they are only capable of slowing down the affect
of
> gravity and helping the
> lifter slip under the weight. Many beginners, however, start the
lift
> with the arms or may
> even use the back in place of the legs (a sure way to get
injured).
> You can start with your arms
> or back for lighter weights but as the weight increases this
becomes
> impossible.
>
> A coach or trainer needs to help the athlete develop a style
that
> makes the most efficient
> use of the athlete's natural abilities. In the example of the
weight
> lifter no coach in the world
> is going to tell the athlete to start the lift with their arms
but
> there are subtle differences
> regarding when and how long certain muscle groups are applied in
a
> lifting movement that
> can be brought into play. Before a coach can help the athlete
develop
> these attributes though
> it is necessary for the athlete to learn some basic truths. In
weight
> lifting you want the start of
> the clean to be straight up - trying to lift at an angle
decreases
> the effectiveness of the muscles.
> In fly casting the rod tip needs to move in a straight line and
the
> loops have to be tight or
> you are not getting an efficient cast.
>
> In your case the average fly caster would look at your stroke
and,
> based on what the average
> fly caster is told about casting in the one or two lessons they
may
> have had, would say that you are
> doing everything wrong. Because your cast is so fast, for
example,
> they would assume your
> rod tip is not travelling in a straight line (how could it be
with an
> almost 180 degree casting
> arc?) or they would say you are stopping in the wrong place and
using
> way too much wrist
> because all of the stuff happens way to fast to see with the
naked
> eye. I had to slow down
> your video considerably before I realized much of your rotation
on
> the back cast is done
> early in the cast and that what may look like drift is actually
thrust.>
> Now the real crux of the matter. If I, as an instructor, had a
> beginning caster that
> demonstrated similar style (ignore the haul because a beginning
> caster wouldn't be
> hauling - just concentrate on the idea of an early rotation
followed
> by a long
> thrust) would I discourage him from casting this way?
>
> This is a bit of a trick question - I specifically included the
word
> "discourage" because
> of its negative connotation. Personally, I would never
discourage a
> student from trying
> anything but I would certainly get them to try a more "standard"
> casting style to begin
> with - i.e. open the wrist only a small amount and at the end of
the
> back cast, not at the start.
> Students should be encouraged to experiment and find what works
for
> them but I believe that
> they should first learn the basic casting stroke.
>
> Sorry for the long windedness.
>
> Cheers
>
> Walter
>
>
>