FW: Re: STYLE

 

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From: WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
To: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
CC: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: STYLE
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:49:41 -0700

Jeff - I prefer to think of your style as extreme rather than just
exaggerated.  :)

The diagram does show exactly what is happening in your forward cast
but if you look at the video with the close up from your casting side
in slow motion I think you will see that you are getting a lot
of rotation early in the back cast. Maybe it only appears to be this
way because the video is two dimensional not three dimensional. My
guess is that it has nothing to do video artefacts and it is actually
the way you are casting.

I'm not criticizing your stroke. In fact, I think the early rotation
is definitely right for you. Two things tell me this. The first is
your results. The second, and more importantly, is the fact that the road
starts to load from the beginning of the back cast and continues to
load smoothly all the way to the stop AND you are maintaining a straight
line path of your rod tip in spite of the extreme casting arc. The
video from behind confirms this because the line doesn't just shoot
into the back slide - its more like the fly end of the line is connected
to a fast moving truck and is being ripped through the guides in a nice,
straight, horizontal path. The line almost appears to be rigid rather
than flexible (quite awesome - again thanks for sharing the videos!).

I think one of the reasons this is correct for you is that you have
what I would call a "classic" stroke as taught by Joan Wulff, the
Borgers, and others. Your rod hand starts the back cast near shoulder
level and rises upwards to around the top of your head during the stroke.
Because your hand path is angled upward during the back cast you need to
get extra compression of the rod to achieve a nearly horizontal slp of the
tip compared to someone whose hand path is horizontal. In fact, if we look
at some casters who use a horizontal hand path you will actually see a
slight dip of the hand during their rotation.

Now if you were casting distances of 40 - 60 feet you aren't going to be
using a nearly 180 degree casting arc and you aren't going to be using
the extreme thrust that you use in your distance cast. You wouldn't be
starting your back cast with the rod nearly horizontal so the rod would
load without rotation (pretty hard to start loading the rod when it
starts horizontal without some rotation). This is what I find very 
interesting
in watching your stroke - the idea that you are probably changing the
stroke to match the distance in a way that I haven't seen described in
any of the literature I've read. We've all heard that for a long cast
the stroke increases, the arc increases, and the pause increases but the
idea that there may be other changes in the basic casting stroke is one
I haven't heard.

Again - this is getting beyond the realm that most casters should know
or worry about.

Cheers

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:16 pm
Subject: Re: STYLE

> Walter,
>
> Interesting comments!
>
> In conversations with other instructors the style I use is EXACTLY the 
> style
> they teach.  If you look at my style it is not as you describe being 
> different,
> it is just exagerated.  It is very similar to what Joan Wulff and many
> instructors teach, just longer, more pause, etc.  Actually there is very 
> little
> rotation that happens early in the stroke, the diagram sent along with it 
> proves
> that.
>
> It seems as though we are on very similar planes when talking about 
> teaching a
> style.  Style is very individual so it is good to hear you may encourage 
> your
> students to try other styles.
>
> Actually in a conversation with Peter Lami this morning, who casts 
> almostexactly as I do and teaches the same style, we will be teaming to 
> together to
> co-teach the class I mentioned on style.
>
> Thanks for your time, this is an interestin conversation.
>
> --
> Jeff Wagner
>
> Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
> Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
> Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
> Redington Pro Staff
> 970-481-5887
> jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> www.dhflyfishing.com
>
>
> Quoting Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>:
>
> > Hi Jeff! This is going to be a bit long winded - bear with me.
> >
> > I hope I wasn't saying your style is wrong (or gave that impression) > - 
> far from it. Your
> > style is obviously working as measured by the results. I was trying > 
> (probably poorly) to make
> > the same point you were making - your style on the back cast (early > 
> rotation followed
> > by extended thrust) would be discouraged by most casting instructors > 
> but it works
> > very well for you.
> >
> > Your haul is continuous during the cast but because you rotate early > 
> and very quickly the
> > haul during this part of the cast is short. It can't be any other way > 
> because the time
> > period is very brief. You then finish your back cast with an extended > 
> thrust, some
> > additional rotation, and the remainder of the haul. I'm sure there > are 
> biomechanical
> > reasons for your particular style. The other thing about this is that > 
> you are "casting
> > on the edge". You're no longer looking for ways to get 10% or 5% 
> improvement> into your casting. I'm sure that if you found a way to add 1% 
> at this > point you would
> > be very happy. This is a basic fact in any sport where time, > distance, 
> or height is
> > measured. There is a basic limit to what the human body can do. When > 
> someone is
> > getting "close to the edge" of that limit then we really see > 
> individual styles, based
> > on biomechanical differences, come in to play. Athletes with long > arms 
> and flexible
> > joints take advantage of an exaggerated stroke. Athletes with short arms 
> take
> > advantage of leverage and explosive movement. Regardless of > individual 
> differences there
> > willl always be certain things that have to remain true - muscle > power 
> has to be applied
> > in a certain order suited to the athlete. You don't use the weaker > 
> muscles at the same
> > time as the stronger muscles because the weaker muscles limit the > 
> stronger muscles. An
> > example is a weight lifter cleaning a weight (lifting a barbell from > 
> the floor to their shoulders).
> > They don't try to do this with the arms and legs simultaneously > 
> because the arms would
> > limit the lifting power of the legs. The sequence of events is to > 
> start lifting with the legs bent,
> > feet flat on the floor, back straight and almost upright, arms > hanging 
> straight down. Begin lifting with
> > the legs because those are the strongest muscles. Next the back is > 
> used, followed by calf muscles,
> > and finally the arms. There is no point starting with the arms > because 
> they simply couldn't get the
> > weight moving - they are only capable of slowing down the affect of > 
> gravity and helping the
> > lifter slip under the weight. Many beginners, however, start the lift > 
> with the arms or may
> > even use the back in place of the legs (a sure way to get injured). > 
> You can start with your arms
> > or back for lighter weights but as the weight increases this becomes > 
> impossible.
> >
> > A coach or trainer needs to help the athlete develop a style that > 
> makes the most efficient
> > use of the athlete's natural abilities. In the example of the weight > 
> lifter no coach in the world
> > is going to tell the athlete to start the lift with their arms but > 
> there are subtle differences
> > regarding when and how long certain muscle groups are applied in a > 
> lifting movement that
> > can be brought into play. Before a coach can help the athlete develop > 
> these attributes though
> > it is necessary for the athlete to learn some basic truths. In weight > 
> lifting you want the start of
> > the clean to be straight up - trying to lift at an angle decreases > the 
> effectiveness of the muscles.
> > In fly casting the rod tip needs to move in a straight line and the > 
> loops have to be tight or
> > you are not getting an efficient cast.
> >
> > In your case the average fly caster would look at your stroke and, > 
> based on what the average
> > fly caster is told about casting in the one or two lessons they may > 
> have had, would say that you are
> > doing everything wrong. Because your cast is so fast, for example, > 
> they would assume your
> > rod tip is not travelling in a straight line (how could it be with an > 
> almost 180 degree casting
> > arc?) or they would say you are stopping in the wrong place and using > 
> way too much wrist
> > because all of the stuff happens way to fast to see with the naked > 
> eye. I had to slow down
> > your video considerably before I realized much of your rotation on > the 
> back cast is done
> > early in the cast and that what may look like drift is actually thrust.>
> > Now the real crux of the matter. If  I, as an instructor, had a > 
> beginning caster that
> > demonstrated similar style (ignore the haul because a beginning > caster 
> wouldn't be
> > hauling - just concentrate on the idea of an early rotation followed > 
> by a long
> > thrust) would I discourage him from casting this way?
> >
> > This is a bit of a trick question - I specifically included the word > 
> "discourage" because
> > of its negative connotation. Personally, I would never discourage a > 
> student from trying
> > anything but I would certainly get them to try a more "standard" > 
> casting style to begin
> > with - i.e. open the wrist only a small amount and at the end of the > 
> back cast, not at the start.
> > Students should be encouraged to experiment and find what works for > 
> them but I believe that
> > they should first learn the basic casting stroke.
> >
> > Sorry for the long windedness.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Walter
> >
> >
> >