Re: Interim message - definitions

Agree !

G




On Jan 27, 2012, at 1:21 PM, WALTER SIMBIRSKI wrote:

> Gordy,
>  
> I know you have been caught in the middle of some interesting personalities but if I was to call you on the phone I don't think it would be to waste our time on this mess unless you wanted to unload some frustration. I can think of much more meaningful things to talk about.  ;-)
>  
> Walter
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gordy Hill <MasterStudyGroup@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:49 am
> Subject: Re: Interim message - definitions
> To: WALTER SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
> 
> > Walter,
> > 
> > You hit it on the nose !
> > 
> > It DID become "political".
> > 
> > This is one reason why I do not wish to go much further with 
> > glossary/definition discussions on the Group messages at this time.
> > 
> > I don't even want to put the political stuff in emails.... 
> > though I'll discuss them with you by phone.
> > 
> > Best,
> > 
> > Gordy
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Jan 27, 2012, at 11:11 AM, WALTER SIMBIRSKI wrote:
> > 
> > > Gordy - Off the record
> > >  
> > > It has been a while since I've looked at either set of 
> > definitions. It seems to me that the FFF version
> > > has actually taken a step backwards since I last saw a 
> > "complete" set. I can see now where the conflict comes from and, 
> > as I wrote to you and Bruce the other day, there is a much 
> > deeper, i.e. political issue, than what does or does not belong 
> > in the casting stroke.
> > >  
> > > With respect to what does or does not belong in the cs my 
> > feeling is that this is a semantic issue. Certainly we always 
> > envision our casts as being perfect and without faults such as 
> > creep but, like it or not, creep sometimes creeps in. As an 
> > instructor I'm going to tell my student that he/she has 
> > something in their casting stroke that doesn't belong there. The 
> > semantic issue. to me, is how do I tell someone I see a fault in 
> > their cs when, by definition, the fault cannot be part of his or 
> > her cs? It seems that by definition only a fault free cs can be 
> > considered an actual cs.
> > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Gordy Hill <MasterStudyGroup@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Date: Friday, January 27, 2012 6:00 am
> > > Subject: Interim message - definitions
> > > To: Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
> > > 
> > > > Walter & Group...
> > > > [GH]  I don't want to put the Group in the position of 
> > > > trying to craft fly casting definitions or to "approve" 
> > those 
> > > > crafted by others.
> > > > You have seen the Sexyloops definitions.  You have also 
> > > > seen my "working definitions".  Frankly, I see 
> > value  
> > > > as well as problems in each of these renditions.  At 
> > the 
> > > > same time, I don't see perfection (if that can ever be 
> > achieved) 
> > > > in any list of fly casting definitions I've seen including 
> > my 
> > > > own variation on the FFF Glossary committee theme.
> > > > Some look at definitions as "what they are".  Others, 
> > as 
> > > > "what they do".  Still others look at them in terms of 
> > > > both.  Some, I think, are better for discussion among 
> > > > experts.  Others are better for teaching fly casting.
> > > > Since Bruce Richards referred to ones discussed by the FFF 
> > > > Glossary Committee, and not formally approved by the CBOG, 
> > I've 
> > > > received several requests to share them and now feel 
> > obligated 
> > > > to do so.
> > > > Bruce sent me the last version.  I have placed this in 
> > an 
> > > > attachment.We have spent enough time, I think, on CREEP & 
> > > > DRAG.  Before returning to our topics on CASTING 
> > FAULTS, 
> > > > we'll send this message to (hopefully) put both the above 
> > topics 
> > > > to bed.
> > > > Gordy
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > [GH] From Mark Milkovich :
> > > > Gordy,
> > > > This discussion has been helpful in terms of examining my 
> > own 
> > > > thinking for consistency.  Would you mind 
> > sharing:  the 
> > > > “definitions we crafted” Bruce refers to in today’s post 
> > and, if 
> > > > it is not clear in the definitions, a description of the 
> > > > “sufficient force” issue.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Mark
> > > >  
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > 
> > > > [GH]  John Bilotta joins several of you as he makes the 
> > > > same request :
> > > > 
> > > > Gordy, 
> > > > At the bottom of Bruce's note he refers to "the definitions 
> > > > we've crafted, they are very good."  Where are those 
> > definitions? 
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > John
> > > > 
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > 
> > > > [GH] From Mike Heritage :
> > > > 
> > > > Hi Gordy,
> > > >  
> > > > I am confused as to why any movement before rotation could 
> > be 
> > > > deemed outside the casting stroke (apart from creep). I have 
> > > > always thought the cast started when the rod moved in the 
> > > > direction of the cast whether it included drag or slide or 
> > > > started rotation immediately. Why confuse things by 
> > unblending a 
> > > > fluid action.
> > > >  
> > > >  Mike
> > > > 
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > 
> > > > Mike,
> > > > 
> > > > Good point.
> > > > 
> > > > Counterpoint:  Like an autopsy. A working system can be 
> > > > taken apart to find out what made it tick.
> > > > 
> > > > Gordy
> > > > 
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > 
> > > > [GH]  Mike,
> > > > 
> > > > This was one of the objections raised re. the definition of 
> > > > casting stroke.  Some start the casting stroke with the 
> > > > first movement in the direction of the cast.  Some with 
> > the 
> > > > beginning of rotation.  Others with the start of 
> > > > significant acceleration.... on and on it goes.
> > > > 
> > > > Gordy
> > > > 
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > 
> > > > [GH]  Steve Smith contributes to my note on Lefty's 
> > casting 
> > > > style :
> > > > 
> > > > Interesting note on Lefty.As I mentioned last week I spent 
> > about 
> > > > 15 minutes getting tutored by Lefty at Marlboro(what a 
> > thrill 
> > > > for me).you are right. I couldn't believe how locked his 
> > wrist 
> > > > was through the whole cast.He would rotate his arm ,shoulder 
> > and 
> > > > body to make the rod work.He also had a very good stop,which 
> > of 
> > > > course would help propel the line.I do have about 17 minutes 
> > of 
> > > > him doing his casting seminar which I taped(with his 
> > > > permission),which I will send off once I figure out how to 
> > > > upload to" you tube".
> > > > 
> > > > Steve
> > > > 
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > 
> >