Re: Interim message - definitions

Walter,

You hit it on the nose !

It DID become "political".

This is one reason why I do not wish to go much further with glossary/definition discussions on the Group messages at this time.

I don't even want to put the political stuff in emails.... though I'll discuss them with you by phone.

Best,

Gordy






On Jan 27, 2012, at 11:11 AM, WALTER SIMBIRSKI wrote:

> Gordy - Off the record
>  
> It has been a while since I've looked at either set of definitions. It seems to me that the FFF version
> has actually taken a step backwards since I last saw a "complete" set. I can see now where the conflict comes from and, as I wrote to you and Bruce the other day, there is a much deeper, i.e. political issue, than what does or does not belong in the casting stroke.
>  
> With respect to what does or does not belong in the cs my feeling is that this is a semantic issue. Certainly we always envision our casts as being perfect and without faults such as creep but, like it or not, creep sometimes creeps in. As an instructor I'm going to tell my student that he/she has something in their casting stroke that doesn't belong there. The semantic issue. to me, is how do I tell someone I see a fault in their cs when, by definition, the fault cannot be part of his or her cs? It seems that by definition only a fault free cs can be considered an actual cs.
>  
>  
>  
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gordy Hill <MasterStudyGroup@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Friday, January 27, 2012 6:00 am
> Subject: Interim message - definitions
> To: Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
> 
> > Walter & Group...
> > [GH]  I don't want to put the Group in the position of 
> > trying to craft fly casting definitions or to "approve" those 
> > crafted by others.
> > You have seen the Sexyloops definitions.  You have also 
> > seen my "working definitions".  Frankly, I see value  
> > as well as problems in each of these renditions.  At the 
> > same time, I don't see perfection (if that can ever be achieved) 
> > in any list of fly casting definitions I've seen including my 
> > own variation on the FFF Glossary committee theme.
> > Some look at definitions as "what they are".  Others, as 
> > "what they do".  Still others look at them in terms of 
> > both.  Some, I think, are better for discussion among 
> > experts.  Others are better for teaching fly casting.
> > Since Bruce Richards referred to ones discussed by the FFF 
> > Glossary Committee, and not formally approved by the CBOG, I've 
> > received several requests to share them and now feel obligated 
> > to do so.
> > Bruce sent me the last version.  I have placed this in an 
> > attachment.We have spent enough time, I think, on CREEP & 
> > DRAG.  Before returning to our topics on CASTING FAULTS, 
> > we'll send this message to (hopefully) put both the above topics 
> > to bed.
> > Gordy
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > [GH] From Mark Milkovich :
> > Gordy,
> > This discussion has been helpful in terms of examining my own 
> > thinking for consistency.  Would you mind sharing:  the 
> > “definitions we crafted” Bruce refers to in today’s post and, if 
> > it is not clear in the definitions, a description of the 
> > “sufficient force” issue.
> > Thanks,
> > Mark
> >  
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH]  John Bilotta joins several of you as he makes the 
> > same request :
> > 
> > Gordy, 
> > At the bottom of Bruce's note he refers to "the definitions 
> > we've crafted, they are very good."  Where are those definitions? 
> > Thanks,
> > John
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH] From Mike Heritage :
> > 
> > Hi Gordy,
> >  
> > I am confused as to why any movement before rotation could be 
> > deemed outside the casting stroke (apart from creep). I have 
> > always thought the cast started when the rod moved in the 
> > direction of the cast whether it included drag or slide or 
> > started rotation immediately. Why confuse things by unblending a 
> > fluid action.
> >  
> >  Mike
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > Mike,
> > 
> > Good point.
> > 
> > Counterpoint:  Like an autopsy. A working system can be 
> > taken apart to find out what made it tick.
> > 
> > Gordy
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH]  Mike,
> > 
> > This was one of the objections raised re. the definition of 
> > casting stroke.  Some start the casting stroke with the 
> > first movement in the direction of the cast.  Some with the 
> > beginning of rotation.  Others with the start of 
> > significant acceleration.... on and on it goes.
> > 
> > Gordy
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH]  Steve Smith contributes to my note on Lefty's casting 
> > style :
> > 
> > Interesting note on Lefty.As I mentioned last week I spent about 
> > 15 minutes getting tutored by Lefty at Marlboro(what a thrill 
> > for me).you are right. I couldn't believe how locked his wrist 
> > was through the whole cast.He would rotate his arm ,shoulder and 
> > body to make the rod work.He also had a very good stop,which of 
> > course would help propel the line.I do have about 17 minutes of 
> > him doing his casting seminar which I taped(with his 
> > permission),which I will send off once I figure out how to 
> > upload to" you tube".
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >