Gordy,
I think the "sufficient force" rule is that if your casting stroke doesn't have sufficient force to generate a loop then you don't have a casting stroke? If so then I see at least two problems.
The first is that force alone is not what determines if a loop can form. The line has to have sufficient energy and energy is force times distance. I can apply a tremendous amount of force for a millimeter and get no loop or I can apply relatively little force over a large distance and get a loop.
The second issue is I could have a purely rotational non-casting stroke that energizes the line with exactly the amount of energy required that any additional energy will cause a loop to form and turn our non-casting stroke into a casting stroke. That non-casting stroke could have a beautiful straight line path of the rod tip because I've done a great job of matching arc and rod bend but I just don't quite have the energy in the line to get the loop to form.
How do I take that exact same non-casting stroke and turn it in to a casting stroke? I could use more force but unless I also increase my casting arc I now have a concave rod tip path. I could increase my casting arc ever so slightly and that would work as well. It might create a larger loop than I wanted but it would work. What do I call my little added bit? Is it part of the casting stroke? What did the added bit do? Did it turn my non-stroke into a stroke by adding a little bit of energy preceding the original non-stroke or did it add a bit of energy at the end of the original non-stroke? I don't think it matters because I now have a casting stroke and that's what I wanted. But what if I was one of those super casters "dragged" the rod into my original non-casting stroke? What happens? We are also going to end up with a loop because the leading drag added enough energy to our line that when we do the non-casting stroke the total energy input is sufficient to form a loop. As a side affect we also kept our original slp that we liked so much because we used exactly the same amount of force over exactly the same arc. Now we have drag - not part of the casting stroke - and a non-casting stroke with sufficient energy to form a loop...
Cheers
Walter
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[GH] Mark Surtees comments :
Hi Gordy
Walter's analysis highlights the problems that arise if we apply arbitrary boundary values to terms in order to describe various parts of the cast which, values wise, will always be circumstantially different. Plus, it demonstrates the weakness in founding these terminological divisions on value based tests as suggested by Bruce's “sufficient force” requirement. This is an entirely artificial and unquantifiable device designed to separate Rotation and Translation and thus generate the “6 simple motions” in Bruce's particular model of an overhead cast.
However, it is perfectly feasible to include Drag in a casting stroke and exclude Creep providing you are not using this type of “sufficiency test”, as Bruce rightly points out it makes things extremely difficult to make the model work if you are. It is the “sufficient force” test itself which causes the problem, not the issues in differentiating between Creep and Drag which may be done simply by saying one is a control fault and the other isn’t, whatever their rotational/translational mix.
Mark
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[GH] Walter & Mark,
No argument from me. I've looked at it the way you do for a while. I see the start of the casting stroke as the first movement of the hand and rod in the direction of the cast.
Gordy
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[GH] Gary Davison weighs in :
Thank you Bruce, Mike and Gordy for the Definitions.
This clears up a lot about what Bruce was showing us in his answer to the casting stroke question the other night.
Bruce we do not know or see what is happening behind the scene, but we want too! ;o)
We are all eager to know more, and we understand the importance of making sure these definitions are sound for us to review. Not an easy task at all.
A good definition of "Casting Stroke" was needed to form a good foundation for the fly cast and a necessary definition for all instructors, and I am glad to see that great amount of effort have been made to lay out the details so folks can move forward.
Most of us have been taught casting stroke as the liner movement of the hand during the fly cast. As an instructor I took this at face value based on teachings from our mentors and others, and included all the movements of the cast in my teachings and made all my students aware of the negative aspects, as well as the positive movements that could occur with in that movement without separation in the casting stroke.
Now that they have defined it as any movement that has positive or sufficient force to help loop formation, then that changes the concepts greatly.
I realized that many felt as I regarding the Casting Stroke question and could not understand why the main stream was wanting to put the definitions such as Creep outside the stroke. This behind the door process and feed back did make me wonder what was going on.
So I was looking for the reasoning or justification to elimination any of the linear components in the casting stroke, which where Creep, Drag, Follow Through, and Drift or Slide.
Bruce did that with his e-mail when he provided the key words which were "Sufficient Force".
That changed the playing field for me.
However I was still questioning the response by thinking, well where are these good definitions that he was referring to?
SO I am SO glad you have provided them!!!!!!!
Happy Birthday Casting Stroke!
Thank you Gordy.
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[GH] Gary,
My thought is to provide as much information as possible to our Group members. NOT to make policy or glossary suggestions for the FFF or any other organization.
This is one reason I don't wish to have us take the plunge into the mire of actually trying to come up with our own set of definitions. I have learned that the difference of so much as a single word can send a committee into a several week long tailspin.
At this point in time, on a Master exam, I'll accept the candidates basic knowledge of the rudimentary differences of opinion between the current diverse opinions as well as his/own logical thinking on the subject. I would NOT expect memorization of the wordings of the definition lists we have provided.
Gordy
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