|
Walter & Group...
[GH] From David Leger - Counterpoint :
Gordy,
My take on when the tail occurs, late or early, end of the line or more proximal is this:
A dip in the tip path creates a downward wave in the line that has to propagate to the end of the line with enough energy at some point to kick the line and leader downward The wave must travel all the way to the end and this takes time! The same amount of time whether done early or late in the stroke.
The sooner the dip happens the sooner the tail manifests, it can't be any other way. So an early tip path dip in the stroke, causes the tail to happen earlier in the cast. A late dip causes a late or end of the line tail.
We also have to remember that the magnitude of the dip determines the energy of the wave and resultant downward energy of the line and how much of the tip of the line (length) will be affected. Therefore a mild dip results in less energy at the tip of the line which may or may not result in a full blown tail or crossing over of the rod leg, if the loop is large enough, only a "tendency to tail".
What I see in the video of Bruce is that the dip is actually happening rather late in the cast.
An early rapid rod tip dip is something that we do for demonstration and not something that a student would likely do and doesn't appear to me what Bruce was demonstrating in the video. The very early sharp application of power does result in a very early tail usually right next to our heads and because the rod has very little loading at this point in the cast it bends very deeply imparting a lot of downward energy to the wave which creates a tail that encompasses a large portion of the distal line. The line goes where the tip goes.
So most of our tails in routine casting are actually from a mid to late abrupt application of power in the stroke. We must really shock the rod at the very beginning of the cast to see how this works.
Gordy, my vote is still how you put it initially, the earlier the dip the earlier the tail.
Dave Leger
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jim Chestnut weighs in on the counterpoint side :
Hi Gordy,
Tailing loops are indeed a confusing subject especially when trying to
pinpoint where they will occur on a presentation cast given an early or
late dip in the stroke. Here is a link to a sexyloops discussion
concerning just that subject which is comprised of 208 posts by some very
talented casters and instructors – and I do not believe there was a clear
consensus of opinion. For those who have the time, it is a very
interesting thread.
I am still not convinced that you were wrong, Gordy. There are so many
different things that can cause tailing loops that it is difficult to
exactly duplicate everything but what you are trying to make little
changes to – i.e.. a sudden spike in force in a slightly different position
in the cast.
With an absurdly early, short, quick haul and power spike early in
rotation, I can get the loop to cross so quickly that the remaining line
forms another loop underneath it upside down and continues forward
(straightening the original loop out behind it) when using a weighted fly.
Doing this later in the stroke results in the same thing further out. So
by extrapolation, I tend to think you were right in the first place,
Gordy.
When trying a less contrived stroke, I am still able to get tails further
out by hitting the cast later - sometimes. But is that because I hit the
cast later or because the backcast setup was different or because I was
intentionally trying to move them out and changed something else to do so?
Another problem is that most of the videos and photos are done with a
short amount of line out through necessity. And since tailing loops most
commonly occur when going for distance, long line tails may be susceptible
to even more subtle variables – such as gravity as you mentioned.
So I am still not convinced yet.;>)
Cheers,
Jim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[GH] From Bill Kessler,
On Oct 29, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Gordy Hill wrote: (in red, in answer to Lasse Karlsson's statement ) :-
"A true concave tip path will not give a tailing loop, it will create a upside down loop, the tail only comes when the tip path has a wave in it, resembling something like an S shape." (Lasse)
"[GH] I wondered about that. Sometimes I do form a gentle enough concave rod tip path and do not get a tailing loop. When i do it with a very sharp , energetic burst of power, I do get a tail every time. I think you are correct that the reason for this is that the latter move yields the propagated wave and the former does not. Perhaps you or others have proven this with high speed video. I didn't. "
Gordy,
I am confused by the statements above.
If the line follows the path of the rod tip and the rod tip follows a concave path, in the vertical plane, and there is enough tension on the line to move the line as described the line must move from an elevated position to a less elevated position and then to a more elevated position. In this situation the line crosses the straight line path twice, once from high to low and once from low to high. Crossing the straight line path twice creates a tailing loop. We may never see the line cross from high to low because it often happens behind the current position of the rod tip, since the loop is not formed until just after the stop, but it must happen if the line actually follows the path of the rod tip.
Just because we have a tailing loop does not mean we will get a wind knot. The knot will only occur if the line collides with itself. An S shape movement of the rod tip will exaggerate the problem with 2 ups and 2 downs.
Note: The rod tip is moving in a three dimensional world and so is not likely to ever follow a truly straight path on either dimension further confusing the issue. Not to mention air resistance, wind and gravity.
WK
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[GH]
Bill,
That's why I answered, "I wondered about that".
I suppose it is possible, too, to have the line move down from the straight line path and then back up to it but not beyond it which would imply that it dipped and returned but never did cross over the original straight line path at all !
A brain teaser.
All this begs the questions :
1. Do all rod tip concave paths yield tailing loops ?
2. Can we have a concave rod tip path without a wave in the line ?
3. Is the line wave the all important common denominator after all when the tail is made with a burst of power ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[GH] Let's now tackle this question from Don Pendleton :
Gordy,
As we go though this section can we cover why tailing loops are very common on the forward casts but rarely seen in the back cast?
Don Pendleton
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[GH] Good question, Don.
My take is this.
Some reasons I think we see fewer tails on the back cast:
1. We tend to pay more attention to the forward cast as we cast so the back cast tail may be missed. (Some anglers never think to watch their back casts.)
I suspect that some anglers may get tails on their back casts and never know it because they are locked on what is going on in front of them ... the stream, the fish, the presentation, etc.
2. Many instructors concentrate on their students' forward casts rather than their back casts. (Good instructors are highly tuned to their students' back casts.) Back cast tails may be missed by these instructors.
3. Casters tend to apply more power to their delivery casts than their back casts. Many cannot deliver as much energy to the back cast as they do to the forward cast.... so even if a wave is formed in the line, a complete tail with full crossover or collision is less likely.
4. The "almost tail" is less visible even to casters who do watch their back casts so it is more likely to be missed.
5. The same maneuver which is likely to form a full tail on the forward cast may be made on the back cast, but with less power applied.
6. Most "intermediate" level casters form much wider loops on their back casts than their forward casts.
7. Early casters tend to use a poorly controlled wrist. On the back cast, this opens the loop and (perforce) dips the tip of the rod down away from the oncoming line. This makes it far less likely that the line will be driven into itself. They do tend to use inappropriate application of power on their forward casts.
8. While creep can occur to shorten the available casting arc on the back cast ("reverse creep") this is very uncommon.
9. When many casters make a back cast, they tend to use a greater casting arc than needed to match the bend of the rod and the amount of line carried leading to a wide loop, not a tail resulting from too small an arc.
Even when we try to make a tail on the back cast for demonstration purposes, until we've practiced it a lot, it is not as easy to do it as when making tails on the forward cast.
The back cast "almost tail" may be more common than we admit. I recall standing off to the side while an instructor gave a workshop on distance casting at a Conclave. Once the casters got to the point of carrying more line out of the rod tip than they could handle well, the back cast loops began to fail sooner than their forward cast loops. Most were made with out of plane loop legs. The loops were also wide ....but the tendency to tail was frequent .
Gordy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Dusty Sprague. (As many of you know, Dusty is a member and former chairman of the Master Testing Committee.)
Gordy,
A look at the requirements on the Masters Performance Test provides insights to what we feel is most important in the area of tailing loops for testing master candidates.
Explain, demonstrate and teach, at a minimum, the following causes and corrections for tailing loops on the forward cast. Specifically demonstrate: (1) Insufficient rod arc, with no creep; (2) Insufficient rod arc, due to creep; and (3) correct rod arc, power applied abruptly. Casting distance - approximately 40 feet. No hauling allowed. Examiners have the option of requiring a tailing loop on the back cast.
Expectations: Good, consistent loops front and back prior to tailing; slow/medium speed. Concise explanations must match the demonstration. Dusty
|