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Walter & Group...
[GH] More on tailing loops.
>From Lefty Kreh :
Gordy
I have been reading the discussion about tailing loops on your board.
While I agree that a sudden burst of force, creep, concave stuff, etc., causes tailing loops. I think these are uncommon causes of tailing loops.
I believe that more than 90 per cent of all tails are caused by directing the line from behind straight into the line in front of it. I don't have time here to type my entire concept. But I can tell you that I have cured hundreds of fly fishermen of tailing loops--usually in two to three minutes.
I don't mean this to be being immodest--the method I use simply works. Ed Jaworowski and I use the same technique and the cure occurs in minutes.
For those who would like examine in depth what I think and do look at pages 402 to 412 in my book "Casting With Lefty Kreh." This is not an attempt to sell books I am such a poor salesman I couldn't sell hacksaws in a prison. But with text and illustrations I demonstrate the cure.
All I know is people come to me all the time with tailing loops--RARELY does one leave making one.
All the Best,
Lefty
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[GH] Lefty,
I've seen you and Ed do it.
I really don't know which method of forming the tail is most common. You have taught folks to get rid of their tailing loops about everywhere on the Planet. Many have not.
When Tom White first came to the Florida Keys, he was convinced that most tailing loops were rooted in the "creep- followed- by-shortened stroke-and-burst of power" combination. That is because this is what he was convinced he saw in the Washington area where he spent so much time.
He used to address CCI candidates with this statement : "As an instructor, you can make your income by teaching people to quit creeping."
After teaching here in the Keys, he changed his tune as he observed fly casters new to the heavier salt water equipment try to belt out lines and big flies on windy flats. He, then, felt as you do that most of them were driving the line right into itself. ....... with failure to dip the rod tip down sufficiently at the end of the cast.
I should have mentioned this under "quick cures" and didn't. Often I have quickly "cured" a tailing loop problem no matter the real detailed physics involved by having an angler who isn't up for an on-the-skiff casting lesson by simply having him dip his tip down enough at the end of the cast so he doesn't drive the line into itself.
Also helps for me to tell him what you told me many years ago on a flats skiff in the Bahamas : "Don't use any more force on your delivery cast than you did with your last back cast .... just haul faster." "Let your haul be your accelerator."
I've resolved that as long as we care to discuss tails we will always have differing opinions on what is most common and the various ways in which tails happen.
Sort of like we surgeons ...... get three of us in a room discussing a problem and you will have five opinions !
Gordy
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This from Peter Morse :
Hello Gordy and welcome back.
I call the loop shown in the image a 'crossing loop'. No way is it a tail.
I think you had it around the right way in the first place. A tailing loop is caused by a concave path of the tip of the rod and there's a bunch of ways this can happen. In my view inappropriate acceleration is the most common.
I also think that in breaking the 180 the tip of the rod does just this, draw the motion in the air with your finger tip. If you bend the rod tip there's a saucer shape to its path, like wise when we have a casting stroke that's too short for the amount of line. I play with this one a lot and have a demonstration that shows the effect of stroke length on the loop that starts with 40 feet of line and the longest possible stroke I can use gradually reduced the shortest before the tail kicks in. To turn the line over I have to get excessive with the power and the rod tip is traveling through a saucer shape.
[GH] Then am I correct that when you do that you are using inappropriate application of power to actually make the tail as you cast with that shortest casting arc ?
Agreed that a controlled tail is a very effective presentation method. I was told by Keys guide Ray Fetcher of watching Jerry Siem lay down a fly to a laid up tarpon on a glassy calm morning and the fly landed like a 'butterfly with sore feet' - the cast he used was an underslung tail. It is very delicate and lands a nice pile of slack right near the fly too.
[GH] Just so all of our readers know, Ray Fetcher is a well respected salt water flats guide and expert caster here in the lower Florida Keys.
Jerry Siem has been with Sage for years and well recognized as being a true elite fly caster.
A technique I often use when fishing spooky large bonefish with a weighted fly involves an "almost tail" made by a spike of power as I sweep the rod tip up a bit at the end of the cast. It almost "hovers" after the final leader turnover, then falls gently.
Peter Morse
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[GH] Question from Shaun Ash :
Sorry Gordy A quick question re tailing loop the mysterious wind knot
it does tend to end in a knot which means the line must cross twice,
doesn't it.
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[GH] YES.
However, most would agree that it is not necessary to form a knot when demonstrating a tailing loop.
Sometimes a simple overhand knot is formed. At other times, the tail produces several cross overs and twists to form a complex tangle which if tightened can be a nasty knot.
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[GH] From Jeff Wagner :
Gordy, tailing loops are a good topic! To push the envelope a bit more...how do we define a tailing loop? Chase and I discussed this in detail at the conclave this year and we had a very interesting conversation. By simply stating it is when the fly leg crosses the rod leg we overlook a properly formed loop from a very slow stroke or a very long cast where the back cast (or front cast) is allowed to straighten and fall far enough that when the next cast is made the line comes from a low enough angle to cross the rod leg as the line rises and the loop forms. We both contended that this is not a tailing loop. But then how do we define it.
[GH] That is the one some have called a TRAILING LOOP and others have referred to it as an UNDERSLUNG LOOP.
I agree that it never collides or makes a knot. I see it frequently when you expert distance casters make those super casts.
Chase gave a masterful presentation with a very interesting observation that the fly leg needs to cross the rod leg TWICE. Because the fly line follows the path of the rod tip and the path is dipped down that implies a high point at both ends of the cast (of the tip movement). If the fly line follows the path of the rod tip this should follow...and surprisingly it did. At least 99% of the time. I think we were able to show that in a very limited instance it is possible to have the fly leg pass the rod leg only once when the dip is at the very end of the stroke.
[GH] That is the way it appears to me, as well.
My contention then, is that: "A tailing loop is caused from a dipped down path of the rod tip that when the loop is uninhibited (allowed to go to completion) it will result in a crossing of at least 90 degrees between the rod leg and the fly leg".
The key here is IF the loop remains uninhibited. That is not to say that an inhibited tailing loop not allowed to completely unroll would not form 90 degrees between the rod leg and the fly leg, but that it is not observable. Now we experimented with this for a quite a time and I have yet to see this not be true. This also differentiates between a good loop, from a long cast or a very slow stroke (underslung loop) and a loop that is truly a casting fault (or is purposeful yet caused from the dipped down path of the rod tip).
Any thoughts?
[GH] You and Chase have made some interesting observations ! Wish I had been there to see your demo's !
Problem comes in a we try to cram an event or "happening" into a solid definition.
If we agree to define a tailing loop by virtue of the double crossover, or the 90 degree crossover, then we are left with what the dickens to call the "almost tail"(tendency to tail) or the one which doesn't quite meet the 90 degree or double crossover standard. Questions arise as to whether we should allow those on a Master casting exam, etc., etc. No end to it.
I'll need more time to ponder this.
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[GH] We go from "alpha to omega" from our message, above to this one from Rick Brown. Both are correct, as I see it.
Gordy,
I like to use descriptive language or draw word pictures. For example; "painting he ceiling of an igloo'' for a convex path.
The term tailing loop just does nothing for me. When I am trying to explain tailing loop I first explain and show a good loop on the ground and designate the upper or fly leg and the bottom or rod leg, emphasizing the word LEG. Then I will cross the lines and then cross my own legs and explain that crossed legs are a tailing loop. I then tell them that when they see an X traveling down their cast that is a tailing loop.
When people are very much alike we say that they are joined at the hip. When trying to explain the relationship of the rod tip and the line, I use the term ''joined at the tip.''
In my brief experience, I have yet to see someone forget the terms or their meaning.
Rick
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[GH] From Walter Simbirski,
A quick comment on the "climbing loop" video at http://vimeo.com/12072379
I believe that this is actually filmed looking down rather than from the side. The loop is not actually climbing
but is moving to the left or right depending on your point of view. We can't determine what causes the loop
to veer to one side as we are only looking at a very limited view of the set up. For example, if the fly end of
the line off camera was not actually straight it could result in the apparent climbing aspect we are seeing.
As you pointed out, Gordy, this bit of film by itself isn't of much use for tailing loop discussions.
Walter
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[GH] Troy Miller lends some insight into my dim recollections of Tom White's actual teachings on the placement of tailing loops. He qualifies with his JMO.*
More disagreement. I can pound a casting stroke from a dead stop and the tail will show up IMMEDIATELY. The entire loop will try to unroll as a tail. I believe that is what Tom was talking about. He and I discussed tails, their causes and cures back in 1995 when he tested me in Anchorage. I very much believe that there's a correlation between the flaw type and the timing as to where the resultant tail shows up. Power-induced tails behave somewhat differently from, say, hand path induced tails.
JMO - Troy
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* JMO = Just my opinion
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