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  • RE: Acceleration (Follow up)



    Title: Message
    Walter....
     
    When Bruce said he had observed that the closer the caster got to an acceleration curve which represented constant acceleration the more efficient the cast got me to thinking this ..................
     
    If we interpolate that information, then it becomes even more logical that if some super caster could ever achieve true constant acceleration, that we'd have an ideal cast.
     
    Gordy
     
         
     
     
     
     -----Original Message-----
    From: Walter Simbirski [mailto:simbirsw@xxxxxxx]
    Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 10:28 PM
    To: Gordy Hill
    Subject: Re: Acceleration (Follow up)

    Hi Gordy,
     
    It appears that I haven't made myself clear in my observations on acceleration. I do not advocate a non-constant
    acceleration. I thought I was making it clear that constant acceleration was not only desireable but necessary for
    a number of reasons. However, we also need to look at the boundary conditions, i.e. does the rod behave differently
    at the beginning or the end of the casting stroke. I haven't seen anything that we would not expect at the end of the
    stroke but the idea that the rod can "kick back" at the start of the cast and the affect this can have on the cast is
    very well described by Don Phillips in his book, "The Technology of Fly Rods", on page 87.
     
    Phillips tells us that the amount of what I call kick back is dependent on the amount of force that is applied at the
    beginning of the casting stroke. I believe that the action of the rod is also a contributing factor. Obviously a human is not
    able to make a broom stick kick back because a normal human is unable to even make a broomstick bend noticeably
    with a casting stroke. On the other hand, a very noodly rod will be prone to kick back and the more noodly the rod the
    greater the kick back. Also a rod that is full flex in nature is going to have a more pronounced kick back then a tip flex
    rod. I find it fairly easy to make my 6 wt, 9 ft, TCX kick back a foot or more. I can only surmise that a lighter rod with
    a slower action can kick back 2 feet or more with little effort.
     
    Does this phenomenon actually happen during real life casting? I have seen one case where this phenomenon
    was captured on film. It required the use of high definition, high speed still photography to capture the kick back.
    The cast was also captured on video simultaneously and I reviewed the video a number of times without being
    able to spot the kick back that was obvious in the still photo.
     
    So to make my view clear - I think that for the majority of the casting stroke constant force/acceleration is the most
    efficient means to make a casting stroke. I think a smooth transition from zero force to the constant force used in the
    majority of the casting stroke is a good thing as it ensures that we don't experience kick back irregardless of the rod
    characteristics or distance being cast. This transition phase in my opinion is on the order of 1 or 2 degrees, i.e. until
    we have the rod tip moving in the direction of the casting stroke for most casts. Even when casting with a very noodly,
    full flex rod for maximum distance I doubt if the transition phase is ever more than a few degrees of rotation. This initial
    start up phase is a very small percentage of the casting stroke. If we sustain this start up/transition phase for more
    than a few degrees of rotation we end up with waves in the fly line and this will result in tailing loops after the loop
    forms.
     
    Thanks
     
    Walter
     
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Gordy Hill
    Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 10:07 AM
    Subject: Acceleration (Follow up)

    Walter & Group...

    We have had a great deal of discussion on acceleration in the recent past.  Defiinitely worth re visiting.  Give some thought to this string of messages.

    Walter Simberski promised us that he would lend his mathematical / physics expertise to further study the topic.  He now responds.  I placed his attachment with this message.     G. :

    Hi Gordy,
     
    Just getting caught up on things here. My analysis of acceleration vs tip path is attached. It may create more questions than it answers...
     
    Thanks
     
    Walter
     
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
     
    Walter....
     
    Thanks !   I'll share with the Group and step back to view their comments.
     
    In # 4. ....   When the rod tip is at the mid point of the casting arc it has to be significantly behind the mid point travel of the butt section of the rod because of rod bend. So at that point the casting arc may well be almost complete.
     
    Still remains, I think, that for rod tip path to be in a straight line, we need to have application of force yielding rod bend which is matched to the casting arc.
     
     
    Gordy
     
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
     
    From Bruce Richards :
     
    Hi Gordy,
     
    I read Walters paper with interest. The only thing I might be inclined to disagree with is his assumption that perfectly constant acceleration would not be desireable. He asserts that we intentionally don't accelerate constantly to avoid "kick back", and other problems. I don't think this is the case. I've tried very hard to accelerate in a perfectly constant way, but have not been able to do it. And I've never seen it in others either, but did see a 1.2, which is nearly perfect, and many casts under 2.0, which is very close to constant.
     
    To think that big problems would occur if the acceleration was slightly more constant isn't entirely logical in my mind, nor has it been clearly explained why this would happen. Noel doesn't see how this would cause problems either. *
     
    But this is all probably just a theoretical issue, I'm not sure that humans can achieve perfectly constant acceleration... If I ever get to that point I'll be very proud, even if it does cause problems in the cast and we're proven wrong!
     
    Bruce
     
    *  Noel Perkins, Professor of Physics, University of Michigan.
     
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     

    Bruce....
     
    Seems we'd need some sort of casting robot programmed from the outset to yield perfect constant acceleration to help prove the point... though I suspect you and Noel are correct.
     
    Gordy
     
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Gordy, we have the robot, but haven't used it in a while and have not tried programming constant accel. into it. Great idea though, we should try that!
     
     
    Bruce
     
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