"Triangle" rods / Spey class

Liam Duffy wonders about the physics of torque on trianglular cross sectioned rods when used with the elliptical moves of Spey casting :

Hi Gordy,
Having regard to the torque applied to rods in "spey casting" (both single and double handed) how will these "Triangle profile" rod handle the "twisting loads " applied to rods during casts that are not "in line" ?

Best Regards,
Liam Duffy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Liam ... I don't really know without trying one. However, it seems that it would be hard to load smoothly when torquing the rod. It occurred to me, however that one would probably not have to tape the triangular ferrules. Also, that this shape would lead to perfect guide alignment every time when stepped. Since this inventor described the rod as a telescoping one, that wouldn't be a problem anyway.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I know the term "white mouse" or "-rat" for the spray created by the sustained-anchor -ripoff.

where he describes, that his arm/rodmovements for most of his sustained-anchor-casting is done

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Juergen : Frankly, I was waiting for someone to ask those questions. I think your interpretation is close to the truth..... however, let's ask Rene Hesse come in with a brief explanation, since he is the author of that outline.

Incidentally, I use the "sustained anchor" method for teaching and perfecting the roll cast loops. I use it to teach myself to improve, too. A great technique !

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rick Whorwood of Ontario, Canada, has far more experience teaching Spey / Two handed casting than I do. He's been concentrating on teaching these classes for years. This is his advice :

As you know I've been teaching spey/two hand casting for a number of years. When I first started teaching, my thought's were to give the students as much as I could. Now I view it quite differently.

First what type of spey course are you going to teach (floating line, sink tips or both), shooting heads, long lines, Traditional, Skagit etc.?

Most students want to learn a few casts, so they can fish both banks, with a down stream and up stream wind.

This can be accomplished quite simply by introducing three casts, Single and Double or Circle C and a Double or a Snap and a Double, or omit the Double and replace it with a Snake (more of an advanced student cast), plus a roll cast.

I found that teaching a roll cast, will give them an understanding of the grip, different stances, what a D loop is, anchor, and how to make forward cast above the water etc. If your going to teach a single and Double, then it is a good idea to start with Switch, but if your going teach a Circle C and Double for example, there is really no need to spend time on a switch etc.

The biggest problem is if you get a student that struggles with a Switch and you want to teach a number of other cast, you won't likely accomplish enough for him to be able to go fishing. If I have a class of 3-6 students it will take 6-8 hours to get through the three casts, with lots of practice time, if it's a couple of students we can accomplish this in about 4-5 hours.

My goal is to have him/her ready to fish with a two hand rod after the course, if they choose to advance and want to learn all the different casts, then we set up another lesson or two. I usually supply the rods and reels !

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rick and I had a detailed discussion on all this over the telephone this morning. He and I discussed some other points :

1.) Your class depends a lot on your OBJECTIVES and GOALS. This caused me to think about Rene Hesse's course and his wonderment as to just how much had been accomplished. If your objective, for example, is to simply have the class witness and digest what can be accomplished with many different casts to solve certain fishing problems and your goal is to have them retain this appreciation for later actual detailed instruction, fine. Then you are mainly demonstrating.

If your objective is to teach them to make each cast and your goal is to have them be able to make the casts and fish while using them, that is a horse of a different color. In that event, you might consider:

b. Remember this: Rick points out that most students can't really gain proficiency with more than 3 new casts in any single session. Presenting them with 7 to 10 new casts will likely overload most of them.

c. Form a logical progression with the first cast leading to the second and so on (As Rick pointed out.) That way you are teaching new casts as building blocks for those to come later.

2.) In the event that your "class" is really a demonstration (such as a public demonstration at a Conclave), then your objective is to provide an overview hopefully with the accomplished goal of peaking the interest of the participants to seek more detailed instruction.

3.) Sometimes, the objective and goals are distorted. An example we have all seen is the casting demonstrator whose "objective" is to boost his own ego by expertly showing how wonderfully he can cast. I call this, "Wowing the troops". No real goal exists as far as the participants are concerned. I look at that as the least effective kind of teaching. As Lefty has said repeatedly, "A good teacher shares his knowledge rather than demonstrating it".

4.) When we give classes and workshops, we usually specify the level of expertise of the student casters. This will range anywhere from "new casters" (perhaps even folks who have never held a fly rod in hand) to "experts". The wide range in between is not really understood by casters who sign up for instruction. What happens is that the instructor quickly finds out that his class is made up of folks who need basic casting instruction prior to specialty casting of any sort. That can lead to an abbreviated agenda and significant change of goal. One way I've found to handle this situation, is to start with a brief review of basics. If the student mixture really does include some advanced casters, this has to be handled very tactfully .... perhaps even using them to assist.

5.) Avoid overteaching. I have to keep telling myself that, because it has been my own biggest fault over the years. It rapidly becomes counterproductive. Give each student the dose of instruction he/she can digest. No more.

6.) Critique your own class or course. Heed feedback. Did your students really learn to use the casts you taught ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is no question teaching spey is a real challenge. I was glad to see you scheduled 2 hours, one hour just isn?t enough.

I think you did include too much, only you can decide if you followed your instructor instincts or your lesson plan.

If it is the latter ?learn from it, learn that it?s more important to listen to your students, and that doesn?t mean just what they say.

It?s a hard lesson but I think every instructor goes through it. That?s why real experience is so valuable.

I have had the same experience with spey? it is such a complicated set of moves it is hard to describe until the student get the feel of the rod and the timing.

One approach I learned from Al Buhr which works is to start on the grass and build the cast rod section by section, eventually add line? read his book.

I would add a lot more discovery time for your students ?it just takes time to get the feel of spey?

On the other hand you did give your students a real overview at the versatility and power of spey, when they come back for more they will be ready to focus on basics.

You are not alone? I did have a two hand lesson once when a certain BOG was visiting ? so I invited the BOG to observe? client was a criminal attorney, Real A type, very strong Hard muscle single hand caster, If he closed his eyes, cast with the other hand he would do fine?put it on the dominant side and everything fell apart.

I tried everything? I was ready to stand on my head under water to get him there?.very very frustrating?. Even to the point my observer couldn?t resist anymore?.He got frustrated too.

As an instructor you have to be willing to take a few calculated chances, if not you aren?t learning?Keep trying new approaches and learn.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Comment: That "visiting fireman" was me. Jim is right. We both learned a lot ! Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

if the students are not to the level anticipated (desired), then biting the bullet and going back, editing the program would be the thing to do.... sucks, but is definitely the thing best for all involved. all includes the instructors.

easiest casts to learn, and highly fishable for the newbie given environmental conditions:

- double spey

- snap T.

one class alone, could (should) be the single spey cast:

- roll (forward stroke)

- belgian (swing around, circle-up)

- switch (anchor)

- spey (body rotation)

the Snake Roll done correctly, safely is an advanced cast, IMHO. people think they have it when they really don't have the single yet.

craig