Walter & Group....
Just got back and ready for our Group messages.
First let's get back to the Spey Lines discussion before we close that out. Take your time with these messages. There is a lot to digest, here :
Will Turek sent me some questions on Spey Lines for Al Buhr :-
Gordy,
Regarding Al's response to spey lines. Al says, "To put
things into
prospective; a realistic 20-foot tip will weigh 225gr to
350gr, 8ips
to 10ips, if looped to a 9wt
feet long and 900 gains. Then, try adding the bulky
weighted fly.
Change the line body to a realistic length and weight,
the same heavy
tips are castable."
I understand the 50'+ length of the line. Take 27' head
+ 10' cheater
+ 20' sink tip = 57'. (Cheater length is to compensate
for
the head
length to rod length ratio of 3-3.5x
@ 16' rod - this is a generally
accepted formula used in both
understand the approximate weight calculation. 600grn =
9wt. 600 + 280
(20' T14, my choice for sake of argument) = 880.
My understanding has
been that since the weight of the
sinking tip is not part of the D-
loop, it does not contribute to the
loading of the rod.
Therefore the
only weight that loads the rod is
the 600grn and the rod is not
overloaded. 57' is 1' longer
than the upper limit of the 3.5 ratio,
theoretically a 16' rod should still be able handle
this. So, at what
point does the sink tip begin to inhibit the castability
of the entire
line system. Not how does it affect the castability,
but at what point
expressed in a percentage of mass of
the head does the tip cause
adverse effects to casting.
In this example the tip is almost 50% of
the weight of the head.
I have been led to believe that as
long as the
tip weighs less than the mass of the
head, the head will load the rod
sufficiently to handle the mass of
the tip + fly.
Can Al please comment on this. And also, please give a
concrete
example of what the "change to a realistic length and
weight" would be
for this particular set up.
In addition, I would like to know Al's take on the
compact
Scandi heads being used with light weight switch rods.
For sake of
argument, limit it to 11' rods. Specifically, what
solutions has Al
implemented for fishing 5', 10' and 15' tips on 20-23ft
heads. What
compensation needs to be taken into account regarding
head length (I'm
thinking of the head/rod length ratio) and/or grain weight
limitations
has he
encountered.
That be None,, to
little,,, to a notable degree?
Thanks,
W
-------------------------------------
Detailed answers to Will's questions from Al Buhr :-
Gordy,
Sorry, have been away;
my thoughts below:
First, some of this
confusion here with some rules that are more like myths. I will expand on the
facts I trust as true. This 2-hand game gets many strange rules never seen in
single-hand, too bad, it fuels confusion.
Next:
Will, thanks for the questions, they're
good, and full of those spey myths (more good). So, sorry
Will, but I am going to trample on most of myths, or rules you
noted, they simple do not hold up when scrutinized. Not your fault, these silly
ideas have been around for a while. I ask is you to test all things,
including my comments and statements. Proofing ideals in healthy for the mind. I
will (well try to) supply an exercise to get you started in proofing these silly
myths, which can hinder the fishing experience.
1)
Forget the ?cheater?; by adding it, the
line becomes equal a short-belly WF with the tip section looped off. Just get
the right line at the start. Avoid the looping on long line sections to extend a
head, as the loops will snare and jam when yarding in the only fish of the day,,
you loose?
Simple
line outfits can be extremely effective tools.
2)
A factor X times rod
length is an old (archaic) way of measuring
working line length; the DT has passed away, time to move on. Since 1994, 2-hand
fly lines are available in varying head lengths, each head length is suited
for or excels in a water type or chose by caster preference.
A
14-foot rod can handle a 32-foot shooting head or a 75-long belly WF, and all
available as retail lines. A two-handed rod has a wide range to fly line?s
weight and length; regulated greatly by personal ?feel?.
It
is misleading to state rod length determines the
proper line length, since other elements of a rod have great importance.
Rod
length, rod weight/size, and rod action will interact and harmonize naturally
with a given line length (single or two-handed). This is detailed in my line
booklet.
In
teaching, it can be confusing to students to refer line lengths as
X-times-rod-length; not in following with ?Keep it Simple?
approach?..
In
Single-hand the is no defined X rod length
limitation to rods. It is accepted a 9-foot rod can cast short bodied WF in a
spring creek then false cast a SA Expert WF at 90-feet prior to the final
delivery. Very possible a single-hand 5wt. could have an 80-some-feet variance
in length (short to long casts). This corrupts the X-rod length thought.
Exercise: use different
WF head lengths, try a short-belly and a long-belly. Use a Switch cast; it is
very important to note where your hand travel starts and stops, don?t look at
the loops, look at your arms/hands. The mid-50? line will have a shorter
stroke than the mid-70? (by several inches). Mix in a 40? or shorter shooting
head and shorten the stroke again.
Most
?spey casters? struggle to change-up their stroke lengths;
yet in single-hand, visible change of stroke length is common/normal. ?Spey
casters? who fail to shorten their stroke, may compensate by increasing line
weight/mass; likewise some Skagits are 2 to 3 line weights heavy (by trade). If
you include a
Think
of stroke length as the adjuster for the varying
sinking tip weights, densities and fly size/weight.
Having
control of stroke length, to change-up, is critical to adjust within the
situation. As in: gain a position to get the strike, cast from that location;
rather than, stand to make the cast, have a poor presentation, to make
additional casts.
3)
The 3x rod factor for
a
For a
good ten years (thru the ?80s) on the
Why
this works well? Easier to control the backloop when in tight situations, and
rod tip closer to the sinking tip makes hoisting them free from the surface
easier.
Cure
for the X-rod myth is simple, buy one of Timmy?s Airflo Compacts (a great line
and popular [Hmm, guess why?]). Better yet, cut your
4)
Top (rod-leg) of the
D-loop loads the rod, False (to a
measurable degree). Easily proven so:
-If
the top D-leg (rod leg) is the source of rod loading, then stop anchoring the
fly/ leader/ lower D-leg onto the water? Leave the anchor placement
hovering in the air, this should work out well, since the lower D-leg does not
contribute to the cast?..
-Why
do anchors skip loose when a D-loop is over tension during the forward
stroke? Tension form rod
loading.
-How
is it possible to make a ?dead line? roll cast, with an extreme shallow backloop
that is static (less than 2? behind the rod shaft). It works due to the
resistance of the lower D-leg (fly-leg).
Past
long term use of the DT fly line for spey casting, floating and sinking,
corrupts the thought a fly lines predominate mass must be in the upper leg of
the D-loop. Furthermore, some high performance long-belly line profiles
specifically do not have the predominant mass in the top D-leg; as in directly
behind the rod tip.
-An
anchor has two tasks; trap the fly/leader establishing the D-loop depth (to some
degree), and to provide rod loading into the forward cast. In addition, the grip
of the anchor must exceed all energy generated into the forward cast (there are
techniques to regulate/increase anchor grip).
The lower (fly-leg) of the D-loop weight does not contribute to rod
loading, False. A ?dead line? Roll cast derives loading form the
lower D-loop leg.
Exercise: Use your
Airflo
14? ?Extra-Super-Fast? (6.1ips) it weighs 115 gr.
Airflo Custom cut
330, cut at 14? (9.5 ips) it will weigh about 230
gr.
Airflo Custom cut
470, cut at 14? (11.5 ips) it will weight about 330
gr. (substitute with
Avoid using a pause in the D-loop, use a degree of constant tension to
swing the ?circle-up? around and forward,, smooth as silk, firm as steel,
progressively..
The
The
fly size-shape-materials-weight, combined, will shift how the head body and
sinking tip will respond.
5)
Lets by-bass a short bit, and look at
rod loading, via D-loop, with a round-world spin to a more clear a path. This
will help validate correction of some myths.
[Note:
For those strongly fixed to straight-line, some concepts will not/cannot come to
potential due to related consequences of a ?stop?]
Agreed, as the working
line length (line outside the tip) increases, the stroke length increases;
consequently, greater rod bend, or rod loading can be
attained.
Increase in stroke
length allows greater time (cycle duration) for the fly line to respond to
applied forces, in turn allowing for more applied force; the fly line?s
prospective.
The
rod as an entity, with regard to bend or loading, recognizes the fly line as
resistance.
Therefore, as a set
head length shortens, its weight proportionally will increase; as the head
lengthens, the weight proportionally decreases (an old line building rule). This
shift in mass allows a stroke length (to some degree) to centralize. As an
example, the old rule of line selection; DT- rod size, WF- one up, ST- two up
from rod size.
Standard retail
To
expand on line resistance within a D-loop (constant tension); the rod reaction
(bending) to the due to the line?s resistance can be derived from: the lines
mass, or friction/resistance placed onto the line, such as the ?anchor?. For
instance, a ?dead line? roll cast lower D-leg develops loading resistance.
Likewise, a sinking tip, by its nature, is a reliable loading resistance.
Accepting an anchor placement as a source of loading, the overall mass of a
skagit body does not need to be excessive heavy. Reducing body weight, the head
system will be less harsh on the water, improving fishing success.
6)
The sinking tip
section and to the floating body work together like a marriage. The
tip presents the fly to the desired depth; the body delivers the tip to the
target. Each has a vital role in an effective presentation; combined work in
harmony with the body supporting the tip.
The
tip draws the fly to the strike zone. When
selecting a tip, choose the length for the approach/water type, pick the ?ips?
rate of sink for the needed depth, use the minimal diameter size that will carry
the fly (less mass; easier to cast).
The
Body drives the tip, and regulates the
unroll during flight. A level body will conduit sufficient energy to hoist any
heavy tip, consequently can have a harsh lay-down. A tapered body, reducing to
the tip, will compromise lifting/heaving strength for a smoother lay-down. A
good compromise is a 25% front taper / 75% level body. A 25/75 will heave the
chunkiest tips and ugliest flies; yet throttle for a quiet
approach.
A line
building guideline for matching the sinking tip to the body for a somewhat
smooth casting head is:
Select the head?s floating
body section with an equivalent or slightly greater weight-per-foot than the
sinking tip. Consider the sinking line?s density as well. In extreme situations
with high-density sinking tips, the weight can exceed 28 grains-per-foot, or
more. In these instances, the floating body weight-per-foot can be 80% (near a
maximum ratio) of the heavier sinking tip weight-per-foot. Ultimately, the fly
rod?s size, length and action will dictate the limitations to how extreme the
sinking tip can become.
§
This is clearly detailed in my new line booklet.
[Like computers that
become outdated in three months, my booklet has updates; now v21 is 48
pages]
7)
The switch rod, a Gary Anderson vision, has evolved and
fulfilled a useful nitch.
[Gray Anderson also
specializes in several series of ultra light 2-hand rods, down to a standard
length in a 3wt. size.]
The
switch rod is in its own little world, not a single-hand rod and not a two-hand rod; yet, it goes
both ways,,, With a half size handle, the switch rod is nice to single-hand
cast, change the grip to both hands and it becomes a light snappy spey
casting machine.
The light models, below
5wt. are effective for high-sticking, multi fly set-ups, or big indicators.
SAGE has a 11? - 6wt that
was a spunky tip, perfect for poppers ? just love it, the ultimate cross-over
rod.
The larger lines sizes
(still at 11-foot) can be effective with sink tips in small rivers with close
surroundings, like some mid-west steelhead rivers. Henrik Mortensen has a 11? 4?
? 8wt with the new keen Zpey handle that is super smooth with lots of lifting
power.
Lines
can be simple, but you may need to experiment a bit
to get the perfect match or ?feel?. Switch rods are a pinch stronger that
single-hand, so one can select a single-hand line and up one or two sizes. The
Airflo 40-plus is liked choice by some. Royal Wullf has the Ambush line, a
single-hand
My
performance for a wet fly is a shooting head with mono, all performance (all
floating or sink tip). For popping, my favorite is a Royal Wullf Bass Triangle
Taper, a nice marriage.
The
compact
The
compact Scandi lines become popular in with the 13-foot and shorter rods and in
light versions will match up with the switch rods.
The
limitation to line choice is only limited by the wiliness to try, and your
preferred ?feel?.
QUIZ:
Spey lines
1 - Generally speaking what types of lines are not suitable for Spey casting? WF lines with short heads
2 - Generally speaking what types of lines are commonly used for Spey casting? DT lines. WF lines with long heads and/or long rear tapers
3 - Why are those listed in (1) unsuitable and why are those listed in (2) suitable?
Line mass is required at the rod tip for adequate control.
4 - Recommend the head (front taper + main mass (belly) + back taper) length to rod length for a promising student. 3 to 4 times the rod length
5 - How much floating line (multiple of rod length) can be comfortably aerialised into a 'D' loop with a long belly Spey line, single Spey cast and 45 degree angle change? Up to 5 times the rod length
6 - As (5) for a Double Spey cast with a 90 deg angle change? 4 to 5 times the rod length
7 - How do the answers given in (5) and (6) vary for the following conditions:
Increase by about 10 ft for every additional foot above the water surface and vice versa.
a) - Standing on a casting platform?
b) - Wading ankle deep?
c) - Wading up to waist level?
8 - What can be done to increase the length of line aerialised in a 'D' loop for a Single Spey cast and what is likely to deteriorate during the casting sequence as this length is increased?
More rod force and a flatter stroke. Becomes more difficult to precisely land the anchor and requires more space behind.
9 - What determines the maximum mass of a custom fast sinking tip attached to a Spey line?
Mass profile of the line and fly
10 - When Spey casting with a fast sinking tip how can you reasonably sure that the line/fly will cast cleanly?
Ensure that the chosen line weight has sufficient mass to be able to control the weight of the sink tip
11 - How does the leader/fly assemblage influence Spey cast and for Underhand casting?
Spey anchor comprises leader and some line tip varying with length of line cast so leader/fly assemblage is tuned mostly for smooth turnover. For sinking lines particularly the leader may be quite short. For underhand casting the leader is the anchor so length is more critical. A longer leader makes a "more sticky" anchor.
12 - Who popularised the modern Underhand cast?
Goran Andersson.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of Underhand casting compared to Spey casting?
Underhand is a powerful method utilising short shooting heads, which are completely aerialised during the formation of the D loop, leaving only the leader and fly to form the anchor. Requires less back cast room than traditional Spey but stripping, shooting and line management is required for each cast.
13 - The rear portion of the head of many WF Spey lines is comparatively heavy, why?
Line mass at the rod tip is required to provide sufficient momentum to unroll the loop and turn over a heavy fly
14 - What disadvantage (from a fishing perspective) is encountered due to the heavy rear portion with certain types of line?
Difficult to mend this heavy line with only running line at the rod tip.
15 -What type of line was preferred by Scotsman Alexander Grant who often cast over 160ft without shooting any line over 100 years ago? What type of cast did he use? What type of rod and where did it get its name from? Which of the modern lines most closely compare with Grant's line?
Tapered silk Line. Switch Cast or "Welsh Throw". Greenheart "Vibration" rod so called because each was individually "frequency tuned" by Grant. Triangle Taper.
Interesting article here:
http://www.fishandfly.com/articles/20060902_10
16 - What do you expect to see if uncontrolled running line is used with a shooting head and:
a) - The running line is too light/lacks friction? The head tumbles
b) - The running line is too heavy/excessive friction? Head unrolls too quickly, dumps and falls short
c) - Imagine that you are wading waist deep in a fast flow. Describe how the drag effect of loose running line can be reduced whilst casting?
Gather into loops to be held in the fingers of the lower hand
d) - How can turnover be improved? Manage overhang better. Use a longer head.
17 - Howling upstream wind, standing on a long steep bank four feet above the water (the bank rises to 100 ft). Fishing with a type 3 sinking line into deep water. What cast would you suggest? Snap T
18 - Wind is downstream and you are positioned back against a wall built right at the water's edge with no possibility of wading?
Choose an outfit and casting method to make best use of the situation? Longest suitable two hander. Skagit casting.
19 - For what purposes was "Skagit" casting styles developed? What techniques are common to all Skagit casts?
Casting heavy terminal tackle with little or no back cast room. "Flop and Stop" waterborne anchors.
20 - What are the advantages and disadvantages of using a double tapered line for Spey casting?
Always have maximum mass at the rod tip but never have less friction in the guides.
Best wishes,
Ally Gowans
Here are just a few additional questions asked by Rick Whorwood:-
21. - What is the primary function of the rear taper of a Spey line ? Provide more mass at the rod tip for than running line would when making longer casts.
22 - Which is better, a long rear taper or a short one ? Long
23 - Is it necessary to have a rear taper on a Spey line ? No
24 - Can you think of any advantage to using a shooting head rather than a full Spey line ? Requires less back cast room for long casts. Easier to change if conditions warrant. Overhead casting in the surf.
25 - Do you know of any group of Spey fishermen who are known for cutting off the rear taper of their Spey lines ? Steelheaders.
26 - In general, how are Spey lines rated ? Four different categories, each measured at a different length
Rick / Gordy
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