Roll cast issues

Walter & Group...

From Soon Lee:

Hi Gordy,

 

I find it difficult to reconcile the two comments in blue below. Can we or can we not roll cast without changing rod orientation (I am equating this with change of line plane)?

 

Also, at what degree of "change of line plane" do we label it an ellipse?

 

'Best,

 

Soon.

 

 

 

3.) If the roll cast is an example of an elliptical cast, and I make a simple roll cast with my static loop behind with my rod at 20 degrees from vertical .... and then make my forward cast without changing that rod orientation, then where is the ellipse ?

If you made a cast with a static loop all of which was behind the caster, you didn’t make a roll cast and if you made a roll cast and the line didn’t collide a change of line plane was included!

A point I knew you would make !!!!!   You are absolutely correct.  YET IN OUR DESCRIPTIONS AND DEFINITIONS OF THE ROLL CAST, NO ONE EVEN MENTIONED THE CHANGE OF PLANES DESPITE THE FACT THAT THIS IS NECESSARY.   G.

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Soon:  I simply wanted to emphasize a point which Ally made, that there must be some difference in the orientation of the rod between the back cast maneuver and that of the forward cast to avoid a collision .... true with roll casts as well.

You bring up an interesting issue.....

At what point we make the distinction between the amount of plane change needed for most casts and that used for what we have labelled "elliptical casts" I cannot answer.  I know of no one who has made the distinction mathematically. 

Speaking in generalities, with no quantification, we all know an elliptical cast when we see or perform one.  As we make other casts, we usually don't think about this change of planes, because it can be so small.

Gordy

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Capt. John Hand comes in with a followup to his message:-

Al Crise, in answer to Carl Zarelli :-

Howdy Carl and Gordy,

 

 Let me walk you through a normal fishing cast or a couple of them.

  First on a still water pond, trees preventing back casting.

    I will shake out my fly line enough to make the cast I want. 30, 40,50 ft

 Make a cast to mid pond, to get my line under-control. I use the high rod hand, low rod tip behind me to get this slack line out. It can be 45 to 60 degrees from the target area. Pull in the amount of line I do not need to make my cast distance. Set up to make the roll cast to my target.Swing me rod low to the surface to keep the line staged in the direction of the cast I plan on making (Lefty's drag point and cast) I keep my leader and fly in the direction of my target, placing my slack line behind me as much as I can. Make the roll cast to the target. Making a forward Aerial rollcast. 

 

 Moving water, I am recasting using a roll cast backup stream after a drift. Here you have to make the cast off the left shoulder to go right or right to go left. Sometimes I am changing directions almost 180 degrees. Some what like a Spey cast as the faster the water the less time you can spend staging or pausing. But making the roll cast over the leader is still important not to cross it.

 

  I am working a bank from a drift boat or wading a long and casting from the other side of the river. Maybe to a grass or mangrove tree line shore. Here I am putting the fly back to the same area just off the bank. I strip in about two or three feet of line to make the fly or popper look like minnow or a frog swimming away from the back. Slip some line as I raise my rod tip to recast. Rollcast back to the next target maybe a foot or two along the shore. This will lift the fly and leader off and re set it at the new target area. Small directional change just a longer cast.

  It is the ability to make a Aerial Roll Cast that gives you the biggest change of directions. Keeping the line on the water will make control in the wind easier. Judging distance if the line is out already gives you the advantage to reposition it to the target. Getting is aloft is for directional and distance cast.

 I use the rollcast much of the time when wading small streams, working from a boat or my kayak or kickboat. Staying below the tree line to keep out of the wind.

  I use it to free my fly from a snag, or getting my Clouser back to the surface, my sink tip line on top. I can use two or even three roll cast to get a long sinking line back up, then out.

  My style of roll casting was taught to me by Tom White. Getting the rod hand High or above the shoulder. Dropping the rod tip behind you, with as much line as you can.  Leading with the rod butt. Delaying the rotation until the stroke is completed. Will all help to get the load on the rod. The stop has to be high to allow the loop to travel out, not down.

Carl I hope this helps.

  Ol Al

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COMMENT:  Al has described his style/technique of roll casting.  My way of doing it is pretty muck as described in Lefty Kreh's writings.  Basically, I never get my hand above my casting shoulder.  I use a low-elbow-off-vertical-to-off-horizontal rod plane (casting plane).  My rod tip is way back behind me on the roll cast setup. For me this style works well, particularly when I have a hard wind from behind or quartering from the rear because it is less likely that my D-loop will be blown back at me.

 

I realize that there are many variations on the roll cast "theme".

 

"Different strokes for different folks."

 

Gordy

 

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Al Crise sends an answer to Ally Gowans question:

 

Howdy Gordy and  Ally

  Does the D loop have "power"?

The "D" Loop is non-static Mass. That will load the rod, when the rod is pulled away from this mass. If we looked at the Top of the "D" is much like the Back cast rod leg of the overhead cast. The Sharper we can make the top of the "D" back wards the better the load. The bigger we can make the "D" the more line (mass) we have behind the rod, to pull on. What we are doing is 'Changing the Direction of travel'. This change of direction is one of Newton's laws "A body in motion will remain in motion unless acted on by another force". The Energy needed to change the direction of the flowing line in the "D" loop is Rod Loading.

 So is there 'Power'?. There is resistance to directional change. Making it faster in the wrong direction will add load but requires more force that is necessary if the D motion is controlled to give the best performance to the rod load and cast to be made Therefore less force and an easy cast can be made.

 

old Cowboy way of lookin' at the power.

 

ol AL

Allen R. Crise
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MUCH clearer. Thank you gentlemen, I really appreciate it!!

 

-Bart

 

W. Bart Larmouth

 

Tailwaters Fly Fishing Company

2416 McKinney Ave

Dallas, TX 75201