Correction / Roll casts-Spey casts / QUESTION

Gordy that is Sandi Roberts. Sorry, spend so much time with Jeff and Kathleen their names were on my mind. Sandi, Kathleen, Molly, and all the casting ladies made it a wonderful time! Pure joy watching their enchanted casting!

From Ally Gowans. My comments in his text in red italics ......... As you read my comments, please take note that I use the term CASTING PLANE as a synonym for ROD PLANE. The definition for this being the orientation of the rod from vertical to horizontal on either side of the caster. In a couple of his paragraphs, I think Ally may be using the term, LINE PLANE to mean the same thing. I use the term LINE PLANE to mean trajectory or "launch angle". Because there isn't general agreement on the use of these terms, I define them prior to each workshop or course that I give so that my students and I are in the same ball park. G. :

1.) Are roll casts and Spey casts in the family of roll casts ?..... or in the family of elliptical casts ?...... or both ? ..... G.

INNUMERABLE angling writers have written erudite treatises on the Spey cast. They have surrounded its operation with an aura of mysticism and complexity which frightens the novice and puzzles the average angler, who thinks nothing of roll casting, with constant changes of direction, for half-a-day on his own trout stream. These writers have in some cases tried to establish the fact that the Spey cast, so-called, can only be performed with a spliced greenheart rod, when any well-built split-bamboo rod will do the job as well; moreover, the bamboo rod will turn to the overhead cast and give a far better performance than the greenheart, with its slow, cumbersome action. Any element of mysticism is nonsense; the suggestion that the cast can only be performed with a spliced greenheart rod, is even greater nonsense. We have no patience with those who make a mountain out of what is, when broken down to fundamentals, an angling molehill.

Let us start the de-bunking, then, with a plain statement of fact. The Spey cast, so-called, is the simple roll cast, into which an additional movement has been introduced to enable the angler to alter the direction of the cast from that in which the line lies on the water as he starts the casting movement. Let us repeat the statement: the Spey cast is basically the simple roll cast. The first thing the angler must do, before trying to change direction, is to master the roll cast. The confusion is caused by insistence that there is a difference between the roll cast and the "switch" cast. We have never been able to see this distinction as a difference. The actions in the cast, whether the line is lifted clear of the water or not, are exactly the same; if an additional twirl is put into the action, and the cast called after the name of a Scottish river, it does not, in our opinion, cease to be our old friend, the roll cast! Moreover, the different terms tend to confuse the average run of anglers, who feel they are ignorant if they do not know the difference. Perhaps it has been the search for a reputation of erudition that has induced literary anglers to create complications. If so, and we remove them, it will be better for all. Basically, "Spey", "switch", and "roll" are all the same cast and, as they are classed in' the terminology of the International Casting Federation as simply "The Roll Cast", we shall use that term only, for the moment.”

You may remember learning the Double Spey in Livingstone and at my suggestion that you take the line upstream, pick it up and complete a basic roll cast the cast became easy?

I certainly do, Ally. Made big difference because it simplified the concept in my mind. This does help to make the point of relating Spey casts to the basic roll cast. Helps to remove the mystique ! G.

Elliptical casts, for a start all of the roll type casts must involve a change of line plane, if they don’t the line will collide with itself (which answers (3) because the forward direction must have been put out of alignment with the stationary line for the cast to work and the fact that you can stop in the middle is neither here nor there in this instance but it does pose another question that I will come to later). If a change of line plane means that it is an elliptical cast then it is, there are however motions of changing line planes that are not elliptical and so the elliptical title may be a name of convenience rather than accuracy.

I see this as a matter of degree in the change of casting planes. I refer to the fact that if we carefully dissect the elements of the cast, we find that it is rare for casters to use EXACTLY the same casting plane for the forward cast as they did for the back cast. Some tournament distance casters who use a slightly off-vertical rod plane (casting plane) do come pretty close to doing this as they try to minimize mal tracking.

So Spey casts appear to be made with greater change of casting planes between their back casts and their forward delivery casts than most so-called "straight line overhead casts". Looks to me that it is this difference which produces the ellipse and gives them the right to be called elliptical casts.

Of course there are casts which have this elliptical movememt of the rod tip which are not roll casts or Spey casts at all .... the "Belgian" or "European continuous tension cast" being among them. You address this, below.

The feature which places Spey casts in the family of roll casts isn't that, but the fact that the fly doesn't travel behind as the cast is made coupled with some degree of load taken from the surface tension of the water in front of the caster. You address this as well, below. When describing the roll cast with the D-loop static behind the caster, I place the term "back cast" in quotations, since it might well not be considered a true back cast. G.:

To cast a fly means to move the fly deliberately from one location to another. If the fly stays always in front of the caster there is no back cast, if it goes behind the caster there is a back cast. (If you try to make a roll type cast with the fly positioned even a short distance behind you it is impossible to construct a stable, tensioned D loop). So some elliptical casts (if I can use that _expression_) have back casts eg the Belgian cast and for practical reasons many overhead type casts are made with a plane change between back and front. Clearly those are not roll casts. Plane changes are possible with either roll or “straight line” type casting so they can be in either family. Not surprising because tilts, planes and all sorts of other movements can be injected into either of the basic casting methods roll or straight casts.

2.) The Late Mike Maxwell was considered a Spey casting expert. In his videos as well as his instruction over the years, he repeatedly insisted that the Spey cast was NOT a roll cast. He'd often state that a badly made Spey cast could, "degenerate into a roll cast". Thus, we have different opinions on that subject.

Sadly I never had the pleasure of meeting Mike and perhaps we would have disagreed on some matters!

3.) If the roll cast is an example of an elliptical cast, and I make a simple roll cast with my static loop behind with my rod at 20 degrees from vertical .... and then make my forward cast without changing that rod orientation, then where is the ellipse ?

If you made a cast with a static loop all of which was behind the caster, you didn’t make a roll cast and if you made a roll cast and the line didn’t collide a change of line plane was included!

A point I knew you would make !!!!! You are absolutely correct. YET IN OUR DESCRIPTIONS AND DEFINITIONS OF THE ROLL CAST, NO ONE EVEN MENTIONED THE CHANGE OF PLANES DESPITE THE FACT THAT THIS IS NECESSARY. G.

Now to that other question. Is there “power” in a D loop or is there even any merit in trying making a D loop quicker than is absolutely necessary?

Best wishes,

Ally Gowans

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LET'S SEE HOW YOU WOULD ANSWER ALLY'S LAST QUESTION Gordy