Congratulations / Arm pain when casting

Walter & Group.........

Congratulations to Capt. John Hand.  Liz Watson and I hosted his MCCI exam.  He passed !     Gordy

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From Bruce Richards (whose "default" casting style is elbow-out-to-the-side.) :-

Hi Gordy,

This is an interesting subject and one that I've had some experience with.

I can't argue with Guy's analysis, don't know enough about the body to

know. What I do know is that the people I've worked with who had pain from

casting ALL cast much harder than necessary. Analyzer charts have shown

typically at least 50% harder, and often 2-4X harder! We know this both

from peak speed and a calculation that allows us to accurately compare

actual energy input. Of course, casting conditions must be the same to make

the comparison. And it is not just casters with pain who do this, nearly

all intermediates throw considerably harder than experts....

While I'm sure that there are some styles that are more ergonomically

sound, I think that any style can be very effective if the caster learns to

cast efficiently and reduce energy input to a minimum. I am certainly not a

big strong guy, but have used my current style for many years without any

elbow or shoulder issues. I do occasionally get a sore wrist when casting

big rods for a long time, which I know I could cure with some appropriate

excercise.. And Guy may have seen "elbow out" casters who push rather than

pull, but I certainly don't. Again, that is a sign of inefficiency and will

require the caster to throw harder.

So, I agree that there are probably styles that are a bit easier on the

body, but if they don't suit the caster it may be difficult for them to use

it effectively. But, if someone has pain from casting using one style and

doesn't with another, it certainly makes sense to consider changing, but

I'd sure work on improving efficiency first....

Bruce

Scientific Anglers/3M

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From Gary Davison :-

, This is a great series of topics regarding Style related to painful casting. 

 

Being a dominate elbow first style caster, I can identify with the importance of this style of casting. Mainly with regards to obtaining optimum performance with minimizing physical effort in execution of the over head cast.  So Guy's take below holds meaning with me.  

 

All styles of casting have their day in the sun.  As an instructor, I need to key in on all the different styles of casting.  Not only to make me a better caster, but also give me an opportunity to pass these styles on to my students.  As they say variety is the spice of life!

 

Flash back:

Granted as kids we had to walk before we could ran, but once we got to the running stage we started adding major things to our activities.  We pushed ourselves to the limits.  Running as fast as we could, and jump off a hill at full speed, and roll down to the bottom of the hill.  Upon reaching the bottom we would then stand up, shake off the dirt and start the process over again and again with our buddies.  Each time getting better and better at performing the task.  Until the one time we tried to show off and did something a little different to be more daring.  All of a sudden the leg gave way or the ankle turned on us, and we were limping back home to see what mom could do to stop the pain. 

 

All of us have put a great deal of time and effort into our casting as instructors.  So as we advance and achieve better levels of casting, it is more difficult for us to back off and consider what affects may occur.  Should we always approach new methods of casting with caution?  The answer is yes!  Especially those casts that vary greatly from our own styles of casting.  We have to key in on what new muscles are being used to make the cast.  We should always administer a comfortable amount of line to cast when addressing a new cast. We should take it slow and easy until you become familiar with the essence and the substance of the cast. Then move ahead at a reasonable pace to perfect the cast.

 

These principles should also pour through to the teaching of your students. 

 

 

Gordy: As you premised in an earlier e-mail:

 

(Do it as easily as you can using methods which don't overtax your muscles.)  "Key words" 

 

I think knowing how to address new casting styles will be one of the hardest things for most of us.  Maybe not from the execution of the cast, but from how it will affect us physically when executed.

 

Thanks Gordy for bringing this subject to all of us. 

 

It is critical to consider these potential affects, when making changes in our casting styles.

 

All the best ,

 

Gary 

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From John MacDiarmid :

 

Gordy,  I would guess that most of the CCI and Masters Candidates experience periods of elbow pain from long hours of practice.  I do. Sometimes I wear a forearm strap near the elbow which reduces the pain to a tolerable level.  The only way I have found to cure it is to lay off for a while ( usually a week or two) until it subsides.  A question:  does the strap somehow over ride the pain signal and continuing to cast will exacerbate the problem?

THANK YOU for this topic!

 

John MacDiarmid

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John...  The strap does several things but doesn't "cure" the problem.  It does help reduce the pain signal, and it provides a sense of security as well.  It also serves as a sort of "reminder" which keeps the caster from being overzealous with his/her casting.   Gordy.

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More from Gary Eaton ..... My brief comments in his text in bold blue italics .....   Gordy.

 

Gordy,

 

My teaching and clinical observation leads me to the following:

 

1. Turning the reel laterally (out) for the back cast stop is a vulnerable position for tennis elbow.    Yes.  May yield mal tracking, too.  G.

2. Longer, heavier, faster, more abrupt, of anything is more hazardous than smoother, slower, shorter and lighter.  Agree.

3. Sidearm can be tougher on parts of the arm than overhead but, may be easier on the spine.  One thing you have to do when casting horizontally and low is to increase line speed.  This is one reason.

4. Thumb on top grip enhances thumb side discomfort on "heavy" casts.  Yes...  unless this is your default style.  When switching to this, it sure can happen.

 

 

5. A "V-grip" is generally a bit less problematic but more difficult to use to learn fly casting.  Yes.

6. Most cork grips on fly rods are much too small and there is much better control of rotational forces, stops, and less energy depletion of gripping muscles, with a larger diameter handle.  Well.... as with style, this depends upon the caster's anatomy.  I like to put it this way:  The handle diameter is best matched to the caster's hand.  That is one small advantage of using custom rods.  Joan Wulff, for example, designed an ergonomically correct handle with diminished diameter for ladies with smaller hands.  Works well.

7. Firm foam or other synthetic handle materials may offer some valuable cushioning to people with carpal tunnel syndrome and other nerve injuries. These materials might be preventive as well.  I have not tried that.

8. The addition of a built-up, cushioning wrap to most tiny cork handles is a rational way to discover the potential benefit of such a modification.

9. Casters in better general physical condition often have fewer injuries and pains. Advanced age, smaller mass, previous injury, tobacco use, poor circulation, compromised nutrition, and similar conditions predispose to longer recovery if not more risk of injury.  Yes, indeed.  Note the citing of tobacco use.  Orthopaedic problems heal more slowly in folks who use tobacco whether smoked or chewed. 

10. Heavier rods and reels provide a higher moment-arm that requires more force to start and stop. Injury risk may be increased as a result. Correct.  Especially LONGER RODS.  Two rods may weigh the same on a scale.... but the longer rod will always feel heavier to the caster because there is mass out at a greater distance from the hand.

11. Isolating the trunk and legs increases forces shifted to the casting arm and may increase injury risk.(Casting from a canoe, for example)  Yes.  Try to make a 100' cast from a canoe or kayak !  (Fortunately you usually don't have to, because with these craft you can get a lot closer to the fish.)

12. Adverse conditions tend to be distracting and lead to alterations in casting form or reduce stability. Sudden adjustments can lead to injuries. Examples include - competitions, wind and rain, choppy surface when standing in a boat, sudden increase in line weight outfit, adapting to another injury or pain, unstable base or footing, trying something new, equipment malfunction, etc. I agree.  One can add the beginning of practice with the "other" arm, too.

13. Most people, especially males, cast with too much force, too much line, too much energy. A wise instructor shortens lines, slows strokes, and smooths acceleration.  Yes !  I think this is a main cause of problems.  I can't remember a female student who complained of these problems, though I daresay there are a few.  Ladies cast more smoothly, in general.

14. Too often, casting pain is inadequately investigated by a medical provider not familiar with the techniques. Worse, the non-medical casting instructor practices medicine by dispensing medical advice. Find out which of your local physicians are fly fishers and see if they want to develop this aspect of their practice. Generally, orthopedic surgeons, physical medicine and rehabilitation specialists, and sports medicine specialists may focus on the real biomechanical issues more quickly. Agree.

 

Gary Eaton