Loop formation

So the discussion boils down to which is more important to the formation of a wide loop ? Convexity of the rod tip path prior to RSP ? or convexity of the rod tip path after RSP, during counterflex. ? My view is that it is the former.

Last night’s reply was hurriedly compiled and I think that there are three things especially worth noting in respect of your above comment – none of them “new”. The tip path prior to loop formation determines the form of the fly leg. Loop shape is determined by the actual rotation of the rod tip (however it was incurred and whether or not it was before RSP so counter-flex and relaxation (to maintain the counter-flex tip position) affect the result). For instance I can make a reasonably straight line tip path, a large rotation and maintain the counter-flex tip position to achieve a wider than predicted loop size if any rebound is suppressed by the relaxation. The rod leg illustrates what has happened to the tip after loop formation and of course this is subject to alteration by the caster.

Best wishes,

Ally Gowans

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Ally ... YES, YES, YES !!!!!

You have just expressed my very point .... clear as crystal.

1.) What happens prior to RSP = Principal effect / Fly leg of the loop.

2.) What happens after RSP = Principal effect / Rod leg of the loop.

a.) Greater effect by casters rod motion after RSP.

b.) Least (though not zero) effect by counterflex and rebound after RSP.

(Bruce Richards pointed that out, too.)

I picked up on one tiny point you made a couple of days ago, that it is easier to make a tight loop with a poker rigid, "fly rod" if that rod is very short. True. Why ? ...... because its much easier to avoid a convex tip path.

I have one, "broomstick stiff" demo rod which is almost 8' long. With that one, I can't avoid convexity of the tip travel, BECAUSE IT WON'T BEND ONE IOTA. This yields great big loops. Hard to make them smaller. No counterflex or rebound at all .... yet big loops.

You are right .... it would be lots of fun to live closer together. I so enjoy your thoughtful input on these, "problems". You often provide a fresh way of looking at things. You get the credit for changing my whole outlook on Spey casting .. It remains a very long distance cast, however, between Big Pine Key and Scotland. ..... pity.

Gordy

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From Craig Buckbee ( On which is more important to the formation of a wide loop ... what happens before or what happens after RSP.):-

Gordy,

agreed... prior.

i'm thinking of handcasting and how wonderfully tight

the loops can be.

but i handcast a bit different than most i've seen. i do

not lay the line down after each cast. rather i switch hands

in mid flight... basically false casting in a sidearm, perhaps galway style,

allowing each hand/arm take it's turn being the 'rod'.

i can 'wave' wide loops, but it's the super tight loops that

fascinate me when handcasting.

looking forward to the quiz answers, as well as opening up here,

craig

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Craig .... Yes. And even though you can make wide loops when hand casting, THERE IS NO COUNTERFLEX. Your hand casting, "wave" is convexity of hand / tip path prior to your hand-stop.

Gordy

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From Dusty Sprague :-

I too think the caster must make a convex tip path before RSP to obtain the wide loop we look for. Al's diagram indidates in a very flat top loop leg with the bottom leg of the loop pulled open.

Dusty

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Important points from Dusty Sprague:-

Gordy,

Yes, I can open these attachments. Thanks much.

Al seems to be hung up on Lefty's principle Number Four (Longer Fly Casting book) - "the size of the line loop during the cast is determined by how fast and how far the rod top is moved (combined with a quick stop) at the end of the cast." Al is limiting his view to motion after the stop...ignoring the path of the rod tip before the stop.

Al might be swayed if he reviewed an article included in the Mastes Study Guide attachments, entitled What's Holding You Back, written by Bruce for Fly Fish America. Bruce explains I think very clearly the basic loop shapes and what causes them. Be good if Al reviewed that.

(I don't have this in electronic form; only in hard copy. I sent copies of all the masters study guide attachments to Denise -- she is scanning them for inclusion in issues of the LOOP -- don't know if she's scanned that one yet ? Nor do I know if Bruce still has a copy of that particular article...)

Best,

Dusty

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Dusty ......

Yes. Those, "FLY FISH AMERICA" articles by Bruce are little golden nuggets.

Re: Lefty's words on loop size.

I've spent a lot of time with Lefty on that one. In a flats boat together and in his incredible fly tying basement in Maryland.

One must understand that Lefty will purposely distort a few physics principles a bit to get a point across to students. As he strives to use very plain language, some scientific stuff gets kind of foggy.

His point is this: As the caster comes to the end of the stroke with a, "speed-up-and-stop" and takes a long time to do that, his rod tip moves a long way from the oncoming line to the stop. Now when that occurs, RSP is at a point such that the rod tip is way below (away from) the path of a former SLP. THIS IS CONVEXITY AT THE END OF THE STROKE PRIOR TO UNLOADING AT RSP = WIDE LOOP.

When the caster does a quick and short, "speed-up-and-stop", the rod tip descends (moves away from) the oncoming line only a short distance, ergo unloading at RSP very close to the former SLP and oncoming line. This yields a tight loop, because THERE IS VERY LITTLE CONVEXITY OF THE ROD TIP PATH AT THE END OF THE STROKE = SMALL LOOP.

As you know, many of our FFF instructors at a high level keep saying, "Lefty is wrong." I did , too, ....... until I came to understand him.

Among his desciples are world class fly fishers and casters including Sarah Gardner, Ed Jaworowski, and Rod Harrison of Australia. I've spent quality time fishing with them where the quality of their casting is obvious ..... not at the ponds and grass fields of Conclaves, but in the trenches of combat fishing.

While not a young-buck competition super distance caster ( in his eighties ), he still remains the single best all around flycaster I know. He's got more tricks than a hotel full of concubines !

Gordy

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From our consumate, "closer", Bruce Richards :-

Gordy,

This sequence clearly shows what I have described earlier, the continued

rotation of the rod after RSP that largely dictates bottom leg position.

Note the rod angle at RSP, then note rod angle in the "recovered from

counterflex" slide. Clearly the rod has rotated an additional 10-15 degrees

at that point, and even more in the following slide. This rotation after

RSP is what determines the position of the bottom leg. Of course, in lesser

casts where the tip path at RSP is not as straight, the direction of tip

motion at RSP will be downward and this will give the line momentum in that

direction which will further open the loop.

It's all pretty simple really, what the rod tip does before RSP determines

that position and attitude of the top leg, what it does after RSP impacts

the bottom leg.

Gordy, Al can be a tough one to dissuade! He gets something in his head and

it stays there until knocked loose by repeated blows of logic!

In this case, there are a lot of variables. We do know that casting with a

nearly straight line tip path is possible, we can see that in a very

straight top leg. But we also know that the counterflex doesn't determine

loop size either. The factor that has been ignored so far is the quality of

the stop, both the rate of deceleration and completeness of stop. Lets

assume for a minute a cast made with nearly constant acceleration, which

will yield a nearly straight tip path leading to RSP, assuming the previous

cast was very good. At the point of loop formation (RSP), the rod may very

well still be rotating forward, either due to slow deceleration, or an

incomplete stop, which will drop the rod tip from its position at RSP and

lower the bottom leg.

I agree that it is very difficult to maintain a perfectly straight tip path

all the way to RSP, but I do believe that top casters can come pretty

close. They also stop the rod faster, and more completely. And that is why

top casters throw the tightest loops, straighter tip path leading to RSP,

and keeping the tip position closer to where it was at RSP than lesser

casters. Constant acceleration keeps the top leg low, great stops keep the

bottom leg high, recipe for tight loops.

I do believe that it is easier to control the tip path leading to RSP than

it is after, and that is why we see top pointed loops from great casters.

Al is letting the counterflex issue cloud what really happens, and that is

unfortunate...

Bruce

Scientific Anglers

(Gordy, I was referring to the PP slides that Ally put together, I didn't

attach it again....

Bruce)

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Bruce .... True. One beautiful thing about Al, however, is his capacity to respond to logic. While not true of some instructors, he has a great capacity to learn as he teaches. That is what makes him one of our most effective and energetic instructors !

On your comment of difficulty actually maintaining a true SLP to the end ........ I was the caster as Lefty was having me demo his idea of how to teach a student to make a very tight loop once when we were giving a demo to a large public audience.

He asked me to pretend I was the student and gave me exactly this instruction: NOW TRY TO HIT YOUR ROD TIP WITH YOUR LINE.

I did it and purposely hit the rod tip with the line ! Made for some good laughes. The crowd loved it.

Gordy

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Making my point, is Al's response :-

Howdy Casters and instructors.

I like I have told you before this study group helps me learn more about casting each week Last week was one that is still settling in to my old head. 'Hard' head might be a better term.

ol Al
Allen R. Crise