Haul (a tad more)

Walter & Group..........

From Troy Miller:

Great compilation, Gordy.  It's so valuable to have input from such a varied audience.  I especially like Steve's, Bruce's, and Paul's answers.  One minor distinction that I think Paul intended:

 

He said "It follows that if hauling adds load (which it must) then since this load occurs also or solely as the rod is unloading that hauling will (or should) slow tip speed and not increase it."

 

This is true -- during the time that both the rod is unloading and the haul is still going on.  But once the haul stops, the rod tip speed hopefully should be HIGHER than if there had been no haul.  If the caster continues to haul until the rod has fully unloaded and rebounded, I believe that is a DETRIMENT to the loop speed.  I firmly believe there's a distinct point at which the haul needs to stop.  Continuing the haul beyond this point will reduce your distance (assuming it's max distance that the caster is aiming for).  I'd love to see some concrete evidence to support this or prove me dead wrong.

 

TAM

 

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Troy...

 

I think you are right about that, as is Paul.  Intuitively it seems it must be so.  This, however, has not yet been proven nor even studied in detail, as far as I know.

 

When the caster extends the haul past RSP into counterflex, it would seem to me that the haul action would increase counterflex and would tend to open up the loop at least temporarily by dropping or lowering the rod leg.  It hasn't even been determined whether or not counterflex helps provide greater casting distance by momentarily lessening tip resistance.

 

A lot to learn for the future !

 

Gordy

 

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Troy contacted Bruce Richards after not being able to open the attachments I sent and got Bruce's graphs.  These are the questions he asked of Bruce.  Bruce's answers are in Troy's text in bold red type, preceeded by, ********

 

Got them, THANKS! I don't know what happened, but about a month ago, I

suddenly became unable to open Gordy's attachments. Might be some kind

of setting that he's got on his computer, cuz I have no problem opening

anyone elses' files...

So a couple of things jump out at me. First, I have to ask how y'all

went about synchronizing the three different sensors' outputs. Did you

have to phase shift them or how did the recording all work? *****Just

had to adjust the offsets to get them all reading on the same scale.

I can't help but wonder about the significant difference between the

haul (both onset of, and slope of acceleration) on your back and fore

casts. Is this purely a style thing, or would you guess that most

casters would cast this way? I will try to check this on my own casting

next time I practice, cuz I'd believe that mine would be really

symmetric between back and fore cast hauls. But maybe that's just

wishful thinking? I could see there being a difference on the FIRST

backcast haul, since you're lifting stationary line, sometimes from the

water. *****I expected mine to be more similar too, but not surprised

that they aren't identical. I think this has to do with simple body

mechanics, it is easier to make the back haul than the front, the hands

are pulling apart from each other right from the start. Also, especially

on my back casts I try to minimize rod motion and optimize the haul.

You'll note that rod peak speed is significantly less on the back cast,

but haul speed is greater. That is just part of my style, and also part

of the reason that my back loops are typically better than the front.

I'd love to see how the character of these curves changes with different

lengths of line out. In other words, about 10 casting cycles, shooting

5 feet on each stroke. Go from 50 to 100 feet while hauling. I wonder

if the nature of the haul changes, for the same caster? I'd think mine

does. *****I'm sure it would change some, but suspect not as much as

you'd think. Hopefully we'll have a more robust device in the future

that will allow that kind of study, we have some ideas.... Bruce

Regards -- TAM

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From Michael Jones:-

I just re-read everyones answers/comments on hauling, and there is a

lot of 'belief' that hauling early is used to lift the line off the

water. I have mixed emotions about the loosely used term 'haul', and

wonder if the haul could be further broken-down much like a casting

stroke where the casting stroke has translation (get the rod-tip &

line moving in a direction) and rotation (accelerate the straight line

in the direction of a target).

Yes, I use some pulling of the line hand help in lifting line during

the pick-up, but let's not confuse that with "when we should start the

haul" once everything is in the air and balanced.

AND, if the casting stroke encompasses translation and rotation, maybe

hauling encompasses something similar in that we are accomplishing

several objectives with what appears to be one 'move', when we really

are: removing slack, increasing line speed, then accelerating the line

by increasing the 'pull's' speed during the rotational

phase...thoughts?

Is the early part of the haul (during the initial part of the cast) a

'bastard's strip', when the final 'pull' is the actual effective

'haul'?

Michael Jones

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Michael...      I think you are correct on both counts.  First that there is sometimes mis use of the word, "haul"....especially when lifting line from the water where one can use a so-called, "water haul" or, "tension cast" with or without a pull with the line hand.

I, also, think there may be merit in trying to break down the haul into elements .... though I can't think of a good way to do that at the moment.                              Gordy

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From Michael Jones:

Gordy~

I agree with your conclusions about this topic. There is plenty of

room for more discussion and some clearer definitions regarding

hauling. For MCCI candidates (at least from my experience):

"I'd like to think we can keep our minds open to plausable theory.

Personal bias and different opinions will remain and provide the very

flavor for what makes fly casting an art."

-this sounds good although personal bias & plausable theory are

concepts that seem(ed) to fall short to some testers (Wulff School)

and in a Masters Examination. I am interested in your short answer

for: "when should the haul begin", just for the record.

I am also interested in hearing more from Bruce and Noel about

tracking the line hand path during hauling, and what they are noticing

with changing the position/travel of that hand to improve efficiency.

Maybe you would forward that request to see if they are playing with

that.

Thank you for all your work here, I am getting a lot out of your &

everyones input :))

Michael Jones

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Michael:   My short answer is:   Under most circumstances the haul should start near the start of the stroke.

I happen to know that Bruce and Noel have not yet done any formal studies on haul hand tracking as yet.

Gordy

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From Scott Swartz........

Gordy,

 

While we are on hauls it would be interesting to hear what everyone sees as the most common mistakes when observing students hauling. I am talking about a student who already knows how to haul and is not a beginner. I know what I see most commonly but will reserve my opinion until others have answered (if you choose to broadcast the question). I propose the question to help instructors learn to "look" for common mistakes.

 

Best,

Capt. Scott Swartz

Pine Island, Florida

www.atlantaflyfishingschool.com

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Scott:   We have touched on a few of the errors, but it remains a good teaching question.   Let's see what responses we get.  We all just might learn something.

 

Gordy 

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