Top pointed, "wedge loop" / Overloaded rod

In "joining forces" with Guy Manning, let me point out that an MCCI candidate is not likely to be asked either to form a loop pointed at the top, to describe how it is done, or to teach it.

Gary Eaton's response, yesterday, was good as a, "loooooonnnnnnggg answer". I think a good, "short answer" might go something like this:

" I can't form that loop. I'm aware that few can. Many conflicting opinions are out there on the way to do it, even among the experts. "

Having said all that, I can see an examiner asking the question of a superbly informed candidate who is near the end of the oral exam with not a single flaw. No intention of degrading his performance by doing that; rather to explore his line of reasoning. That short answer tells me the candidate knows what I mean and knows the state of the art as far as doing or teaching it. I might do that under this circumstance to actually try to learn something. My own ego does not prevent me from learning from my students and the very candidates I test.

Someday, I might actually get a candidate who CAN do it reproducably. Then I'll learn from him !

With yesterday's message, I used the principle of gaining knowledge from multiple reliable sources in the absence of actual physical data. Not really scientific at all, but helpful as a second line for learning. Let's continue that learning odyssey, below:

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Gordy:

Maybe too many variables being thrown out on this one. I think that acceleration (just prior to RSP) and trajectory dictate loop shape.

A loop's shape is dictated by the trajectory of the rod tip at it's point of greatest acceleration just before RSP.

Is the rod tip rising? Then there may be a high-nose loop shape.
Is the rod tip dropping? Then there may be a rat-nose.

When do you really see it? With a fast action rod and a quick stop, and the position of the back cast (high/low) helping to define these loop shapes in a visual context.

To Explain: All with a stiff/fast rod:

Throw a low back cast, and allow the rod tip to rise just prior to RSP, and you will get a high-nose loop that could ultimately tail if underpowered.

Throw a high back cast, and allow the rod tip to drop just prior to RSP, and you will get the rat-nose.

When I am trying to get fancy with small loop shape and high line speed, I focus on making the 'high-nose' loop shape on my final back cast, while doing the Lefty "Elbow on the flat-shelf"...this buys me a little extra 'drift' time to really set up a long forward stroke, which is so critical to delivering the final forward cast, absolutely strait-out in front-pencil point (no rat nose, no high nose).

I like this thread because it defines a very critical aspect of elite casting mechanics: Trajectory & acceleration just prior to RSP.

If you start to introduce the concept that hauling can achieve this affect, one must consider that the haul can ONLY influence the application of power, not necessarily the direction. Only the rods' 'tip-section' can give the loop/line direction, and the haul can only dictate how efficient that loop will become over time, regardless of shape...Another way of saying it:

Efficient hauling resulting in high line speed should maintain a loop's trajectory & shape over a longer period of time.

Question: What is faster: The high-nose loop, or the rat-nose loop?

Question: Is it really the rod tip, or the rod tip section that dictate loop trajectory in this way?

With respect to hauling...

Another aspect of casting that emphasizes loop shape can be achieved with positioning the haul with the rotational phase either early or late:

Add hauling early in the rotational phase: high nose

Add hauling late in the rotational phase: rat-nose

Add hauling in the exact middle of the rotational phase: Pencil-point or round loop shape
MJ

Michael Jones

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Michael ....

Perhaps so. I'm not sure. Guy Manning points out, correctly, that these loop shapes are often made with no hauling.

Gordy

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From Scott Swartz...

Gordy,

Guy's comments about needing a fast action rod to get the up-point loop shape makes sense and was likely why I could not duplicate the point when we were at the Atlanta School. The rods that were set up for the filming that night were all uplined at least two line weights to get the rods to load with short casts for the camera. I believe part of the equation is a fast recovery from counter flex which can draw back the rod leg of the loop.

Thoughts?

Scott Swartz

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Scott....

I think you are right about that. I couldn't do it with those rod/line combo's either ..... the slow recovery from counterflex may well have been the main reason !

Gordy

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From Mac Brown .....

Gordy,

Thanks to Troy and Eric for their input and the new term of "jerk". Great posts from both.

On the shape of loops which morph it gets into black magic of many combinations. The loop velocity and the tip path dictate the shape. The majority of time they start out bigger at formation and morph smaller as it travels out. To morph it pointed into a dolphin shape it has greater velocity from the start. If we want a more rounded loop we simply do not punch it with the late rotation and haul quite as much. We can alter the shape by where and how much we apply force during the stroke. Now this is typical for a overhead vertical cast. Some great articles on this shape of the loop -Bruce and Noel have some that are the most recent. There are others which I will have to dig up and find which help to explain shape.

Where it gets more interesting is where we alter the hand path and throw the loops over, under, outside, and inside the rod tip for altering loop planes. We can now change the appearance of the loop shape. As an example, we can make it appear to be climbing on the leading edge of the loop in the horizontal plane (______/ ). Taking loop morph a step further is the essence of control for a multitude of casts which lead to different layouts on the stream.

Tim Rajeff called it loop morph in the mid 90's when we discussed this topic. I think I was referring to it as loop alterations at the time. I think this would be a good definition for the committee. Loop morph =As the loop travels it changes shape. I doubt we could get many to dispute this fact-but then again there will be many to convince. I do not think too many would deny that the loop changes shape as it travels. Great topic from Atlanta.

Cheers, Mac

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Mac... Fits with Paul Arden's idea that some high speed loops can, "suck up" the line which dips down from the rod tip during counterflex. I like the term, LOOP MORPH !

I took the liberty of hi-lighting what I think is a very important principle in your message .

Gordy

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Guy Manning on the, "overloaded rod"....

Ally Gowans writes: At what point is a fly rod overloaded?

I think you have to define the term overloaded before you have the conversation.

I have see a WF-9-F cast over 90 feet on a 7 1/2 foot 4 wt rod. The caster (Tim Rajeff) just made the correct adjustments to his stroke to accomplish the task. In one sense you could say the rod was overloaded because it had so much weight on it but at the same time you could say it wasn’t overloaded because the caster made it work.

A top notch caster is much less likely to overload a rod to the point of breaking than someone with bad techniques.

Guy Manning

FFF Master Certified Casting Instructor

Moderator FFFCCI Yahoo Group

www.castflys.net

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From Ally Gowans on the, "overloaded rod".

Guy is right on the button again, a definition is indeed necessary for every term. What I’m trying to extract is what members of the group mean when they say that a rod is “overloaded” and what they imagine is the physical difference is between a rod that is in the loaded state and in the overloaded state. Clearly in the example given by Guy of a rod marked #4 casting a line marked #9 and performing adequately shows that rods can be used in extremes depending on the skill of the caster and dare I say it without “overloading”. How does that happen? I have my own thoughts on this and would just like to see if others are of the same mind because key to proficient casting is the ability to always control the rod perfectly.