Translation with torque / Sliding / Grip

I’m still doing a poor job of conveying my thoughts on reactive torque. Please allow me to try just one more time. Recall that for each action there’s a reaction.

As we grip the rod, we establish a position of the blank in 3-D space. Let’s say that the rod and flyline are both perfectly horizontal after the backcast and just at the onset of the forward cast stroke. The video of Jay that he didn’t like (where he may have been picking up grass on his backcast) shows this position very well. Now, if you drag, pull, or slide the butt of the rod DIRECTLY forward (translating linearly only, with no rotation), then the force will be directly in-line with the rod movement and will induce no torque on the grip of the rod. You will not have to “resist” any rotation of the cork backward, since everything is already aligned. Any torque applied by the hand on the cork will be intentional torque, designed to make the rod rotate forward, toward the target.

Now, let’s take the other extreme. Let’s say that the line has unrolled after the backcast, and it’s perfectly horizontal and straight. No sag, no wiggles (just for the sake of argument). This time, the position of the flyrod is purely vertical. If we were to begin dragging, pulling, or sliding the rod straight forward as we did before, with absolutely NO ROTATION, the inertia of the flyline and the mass of the rod blank itself would cause the rod to load, because all of the things that are stationary are happy to be motionless (rod tip is momentarily “anchored”). We have to exert force per time (work) to change their states of energy. Since the force that we are applying is NOT at the rod tip – it’s at the other end of a lever – there will be torque induced trying to rotate the blank backward as the grip end is forced linearly forward. If you attempt to prevent this rotation, you will have to apply torque to the grip JUST TO KEEP IT PERPENDICULAR TO THE SLP. This is not torque that we’re applying to intentionally CAUSE a forward rotation. It’s torque applied to PREVENT rearward rotation.

Regards -- TAM

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Troy...

Aahhhha... yes. My light bulb just went on. Newton's third law : "For each action there is an equal and opposite reaction".

THAT is a very clear description. Well done !

You have described torque as an angular moment of force which does not result in rotation. In this instance, the torque actually resists rotation and DOES result in increased rod bend, ie. load.

Gordy

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From Al Crise:

Howdy Gordy
How much load does the wind add or reduce when casting into or away from it on a windy day.
The amount of air drag on the blank,wrappings and guides I feel will add load to the rod. This
This drag is will change as the rod flexes if the rotation is pushing into the wind the blank is
being held back or bent. When we finish the rotation the blank is now pointing into the wind reducing
the surface area being effected by the wind.
See what happens to an old mind when it is weathered in. Just something to think on.
Ok what happens on the down wind cast.
Testing today in Rockport TX Two CCI candidates. they will have to fight with wind, mist or fog.
Speaking of Fog have you ever tried to cast a loop in the fog? What effect did it have on your fly
line?

ol Al
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Al ... You are correct in that air drag must add some load to the rod. I can't help but think that that would increase if the air is colder and denser or with increased humidity such as fog. I have not thought to critique my loop in fog. (....done a lot of casting in fog when striper fishing on Long Island when I couldn't even see the darn thing.)

When you think about it, anything which bends the rod provides load....even leaning it against a barn door.

We all know that there are only two things a rod can do. 1.) exist. 2.) straighten.

Gordy

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From Phil Gay, CBOG:-

Gordy and group,

I've been following this discussion with great interest. I think you can make a case that translational movement will only produce loading to the extent that the rod has angular position relative to parallel to the ground. If it is in fact parallel then no loading would occur. It follows then that the greater the angle relative to parallel the greater the loading during translational movement. I fully concur that the greatest loading takes place during the rotational phase of the cast.

The slide loading issue is interesting to me because I once had to fail a Master candidate for poor hauling and distance. He initially appeared to be slide loading but in reality he was feeding line (slack) into his forward cast. The line had already stopped going back and in most cases he wasn't shooting line on the backcast . One of the other evaluators referred to this as an "anti-haul".

This was interesting from another standpoint as well. The candidate who was largely self taught had always used two single hauls as a double haul. I think what happened that under the duress of the exam he reverted to old muscle memory and had a combination of two single hauls and an attempt to reset between casts which in reality was the feeding of line into the forward cast.

Phil

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Phil,

An impressive anallysis of that candidate's casting. I think I'd have missed some of those details.

Your point of no load with the rod parallel to the ground is a good one. Another way of looking at it is that the rod is directly in line with the line. When that happens, the inertia of the line can't result in a rod bend. No bend; no load.

The term, "anti-haul" is thought provocative .... seems that IS what you described. If it was sufficient to yield slack between the hand and the stripper guide, it would be like trying to push a rope up a tree. Not very effective. That slack would have to be taken up by the first part of the stroke, thus effectively shortening what I like to call the effective stroke length.

Gordy

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Michael Jones has asked me for a brief description of various grip styles. Rather than describing each grip, I'll refer to the descriptions in the fly casting literature which should be read by all MCCI candidates. This way, you will see the diagrams and photos which will lead to better understanding than mere, "word pictures" .. This will also provide opinions by several true experts as they compare the use of various grips :-

1.) EXTENDED FINGER GRIP : Mel Krieger, THE ESSENCE OF FLY CASTING, pp. 23-27.

2.) "V" GRIP : " " " " " " " p. 24.

3.) INDEX-FINGER-ON-TOP GRIP : Lefty Kreh, ADVANCED FLY CASTING, pp27-28.

Lefty Kreh, LEFTY KREH'S ULTIMATE GUIDE TO FLY FISHING, p. 293.

4.) THUMB-ON-TOP GRIP : Lefty Kreh, ADVANCED FLY CASTING, p. 27.

Joan Wulff, FLY CASTING TECHNIQUES, pp. 15 - 17.

Ed Jaworowski, THE CAST, pp. 18 - 22.

Charles Ritz, A FLY FISHERS LIFE, pp. 47 - 48.

Macaulay Lord, L.L. BEAN FLY-CASTING HANDBOOK, pp. 18-19.

Cliff Netherton, ANGLING AND CASTING, pp. 46-47.

Lefty Kreh, LEFTY KREH'S ULTIMATE GUIDE TO FLY FISHING, pp. 292 - 294

5.) THUMB-OF-TO-THE-SIDE GRIP: Lefty Kreh, ADVANCED FLY CASTING, p. 28.

6.) THREE-POINT-GRIP: Gary Borger, PRESENTATIONS, p 203-205.

Jason Borger, THE NATURE OF FLY CASTING. pp. 44 - 47. (Study Chap. 3 for a comparison with other grips.)

7.) FREE-WRIST-GRIP: Ernest Schweibert, TROUT, P 1208. (On pp.1206 - 1208, he also depicts what he calls the, "PRIMARY THUMB GRIP" and the, "SECONDARY INDEX GRIP".)

8) the "TLT" GRIP : Jason Borger, THE NATURE OF FLY CASTING, p. 49 (Described as an even more reel crowding grip than the Borger 3 point grip in Roberto Pragliola's writing, Tecnica di Lanciio Totale .)

THOUGHT: When grip is chosen to optimize personal casting ability, it is a matter of STYLE. The fact that the caster has to have a grip at all in order to cast could be considered as SUBSTANCE.

Gordy