Translation / rotation / wrist movement /sliding

Ken Cole

Texas Fly Fishing Outfitters

FFF/Certified Casting Instructor

214 969-1030

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From Mac Brown :

Gordy,

Some thoughts on the grip since you listed so many good references. One area that I feel is lacking on the style issue is the awareness of what these grips change. All grips are never constant over time for a day on the water. My grip changes often on the water depending what I am trying to accomplish. I often start folks off with a thumb on the top grip-but I will always inform even a beginner of the pro's and con's of that particular grip. My grandfather was an Doc of Osteopathic medicine -he is also responsible for being such a huge influence in my OCD of flyfishing in general. When I was putting my book together, I had come up with many of my own terms-he was insistent that I use what was already out there. This is right up your alley Gordy. By example, traditional fly casting tends to use more adduction and abduction in making casts. When I went back, looked at what I wrote 16 years ago-I still feel the same about it. Learning to use flexion and extension of the wrist is far more powerful than any single grip out there (example, simply rolling thumb inward on the grip enables flexion (follow-through of basketball) and extension (like flinging a frisbee). All of these styles in effect, either open up the wrist, block the wrist, make it easier for rotation, etc.. so many pro's and con's for all of them. I think, using this terminolgy makes it much easier in a teaching example (I think a must for teaching period) . Major league pitchers throw lightening speed fast balls with flexion -not adduction. As tradition will have it in many sports-we still have some catching up, since most of the time adduction is still offered even for distance most of the time. The wrist positions are very important because they are the last thing of the entire body to implement the force. If the student understands where the power lies with various grips-they will have the tools necessary to figure out which one works best for them.

Here is a little trick I will use often in a clinic. Have a small stick (or any object they can throw over their shoulder-like making a backcast). The first toss have them use simply abduction (traditional thumb on the top grip-most common). Then have them roll the thumb inward (uses extension more than abduction)-the stick will go 2-3 times further most of the time. If this is done in the horizontal rod plane, it is the same exact motion of flinging a frisbee.

This same little trick if used by the hauling hand really kicks the nitrous into the line. Most people haul with adduction in the line hand (not as quick of a haul). If a lightening fast haul may occur at the right time it translates directly to reduced loop size (many will wonder what kind of coffee I drank this morning). Now that one is for another day! In no way could I answer that one in a single word Gordy! I really think these kinds of exercises will stick with the student long after they have gone on their way. Off to the show in Charlotte-snowing big here! Have a good week and I have really enjoyed the posts. Thanks to all. Mac

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Mac....

Right you are ! I often use a quick wrist adduction combination with my haul hand as I complete my haul.

Joan Wulff has made a big point of wrist action in her writings and teachings.

Also: I change my grip during a day of fishing from time to time.

Gordy

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Gordy:

While carrying as much line as you can what is your estimated percentage of line shoot of the total distance cast?

Also, thank you for getting Joan to explain slide loading, I understand the concept and shall practice this technique.

Jerry Puckett

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Jerry..... I carry, under average conditions, about 60' to 65' while false casting with very high loop speed. If I try to carry more than that, I can.... but tracking and my loops begin to suffer.

Now, The touted formula for the amount of line you can shoot is this: YOU CAN SHOOT ABOUT 50% OF THE LINE YOU CAN CARRY.

This means that if I carry 60' of line, I ought to be able to shoot another 30' for a 90' cast. If I can carry only 50' of line, then I can only shoot 25' for a distance of 75'.

In the real world, however, depending upon conditions, I sometimes make less distance than that, and sometimes greater distance. All this changes when I shoot line behind me on the last back cast, because I am then carrying 60' plus the length of the back cast shoot. When that adds up to about 70', I should then, theoretically, shoot another 35' for a total of 105'. Fact is, I can rarely go beyond 100' . REASON:-

As we go to either extreme from a medium distance cast, that formula becomes less and less accurate.

Also... I'm not getting any younger !

I SUSPECT JEFF WAGNER CAN OFFER US SOME MORE ADVICE ON THIS SUBJECT.

Gordy

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From Jim Valle:

Gordy and Group,

Couple of thoughts on translation and slide loading

In my opinion we are understating the importance of the translation portion of the casting stroke. I was practicing last night (indoors fly-0) working on some spey and therefore playing with roll casts.

Make a roll cast with just rotation = pile, large loop

Make a roll cast with a lazy translation and then rotation = better but doesn’t straighten the leader

Make a roll cast with well timed and accelerating translation that BLENDS INTO A LATE ROTATION = A POWERFUL TIGHT LOOP ROLL CAST (applies to spey also)

I know some of our best don’t put a high value on the translation portion I just get a significantly better cast with both and

I think the roll cast is an excellent test since there is no backcast preload to twist the facts.

(I would also encourage everyone to look at one of the Spey videos in slow motion the long rod magnifies everything)

Thanks to Joan’s response I think I am beginning to see the benefit of the slide load, especially with this last piece of information.

Along the same lines as above, as the backcast is unrolling energy is directed to rear.

If we allow the line to continue to shoot through the guides we continue to increase mass behind the rod tip.

If we start forward (loading move) at the same time the rod bends… beginning the loading (actually translation and loading).

As we approach the power snap beginning we have an ever increasing mass to the rear (probably approaching a fully unrolled straight fly line and leader, good timing probably a good thing here!)

Now the rod is fairly well loaded already … but …add the line shoot stop of the rear momentum combined with the power snap (rotation) ( this must result in a total load that is much deeper than the typical load)

My observation at this point would say …The slide trades some stroke length for deeper total load.

I will be out there with this on the weekend. (I am no longer allowed to cast in the snow in the dark with the flood lights, wife thinks the neighbors will call the mental health folks)

I wonder if slide loading will work on a spey cast…it should we’ll see!

I would also point out that Joan started casting in New Jersey.

Hope this makes sense and helps

Jim

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Jim..... When I tried sliding just as Joan describes it, I, too felt that there was a trade-off as you described. For me, that did not result in increased distance. It may have smoothed out the cast a bit and prevented too rapid a start. .... but increased distance ? ..... no. Even Joan was unsure that this increased her distance. To quote her (p. 107 of her CASTING TECHNIQUES ) "While I haven't been able to prove to myself that this method gives me more distance under low water wading conditions, it gives me as much as the standard method, but feels a thousand times better."

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From Troy Miller:

Phil nailed it – When the rod axis is parallel to SLP (which is not necessarily the ground in all casting planes…), there can be no loading until rotation of the rod begins. Translate to your heart’s content, no rod load. Sorry.

Then, the concept that the max torque is when the lever is normal to the SLP is spot-on.

I honestly CAN’T agree with the notion that very little loading goes on as a result of translation. My video in Alaska 15 years ago didn’t indicate that to me. Now we were NOT trying for maximum distance, I’ll admit that. So we weren’t loading the rod to the reel seat. We only had a JV basketball court to do our studying in. And not a one of us could cast a full flyline then anyways…

No matter how much loading translation contributes, I DO believe that it’s important even if only to allow a smoother transition into rotation. This is probably the reason that Bruce and Noel had some early frustration in getting the robot to carry line – it’s rotational only. I don’t believe it’s possible to cast 100 feet with rotation only, at least not with the typical gear that we use today.

Remember, I didn't say that there can be no loading of the rod with translation alone. I pointed out that there is very little rod load with pure translation compared with that achieved with rotation. Is that little bit important ? I think it is.

I also note that it is very difficult to move a fly rod with translatory motion alone.... no change in the angle of the butt section of the rod at all. This means that there is almost always a mixture of translation and rotation from the start. With efficient casting, there can be more translation than rotation as the stroke starts; then the mixture changes as the stroke continues so that as the stroke concludes we have rotation dominating.

Try to move your fly rod with only translation, and have a friend stand at your side. Ask him to tell you if there is the slightest change in the angular position of your butt section. It is NOT easy to do, even when you try ! Better yet, video yourself as you try to do this. I think you may be surprised.