Walter...
You have made valid observations. With these casters and those of most other experts, there is a definite stop....but it so quickly goes into a drift that it takes those slow motion video techniques to identify it.
With Lefty's distance casts, he sometimes does not have a stop until the end of tip travel on either the back cast or the forward cast. On that back cast, this has been referred to as, "Lefty's stab".
On the forward cast, he does the same thing when casting into a strong head wind....thus the so called, "Lefty wind cast" which was termed the, "Thrust cast" by the Borger's.
The STOP occurs when you, "run out of arm".
You can see this done in Gary Borger's video, CASTING WITH LEFTY KREH.
Refer, again, to descriptions of this technique in Gary Borger's book, PRESENTATION , pp. 239-240. Also, Jason's book, ...NATURE OF FLY CASTING, p.239, Paragraph 3.
In reading Charles Ritz's various writings, I'm reasonably certain that he used a similar technique for his famous, HS/HL back cast. (Check out his, A FLY FISHERS LIFE, Part II, pp.38-56.)
Gordy
From: Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Casting in an oval
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:13:26 -0700
Gordy - In one of the classes I had with Jason Borger he talked about his experiences withhigh speed filming of his cast. Most of us (well... me at least) have a hard time identifying justwhere the stop happens on the back cast when Jason and other expert casters are casting. Duringthe review of the high speed filming he said that the stop (i.e. where rod straightening occured) wasvery definite but then the follow through or drift into the lay back position happens very smoothlyand quickly so that it is difficult to actually see the stop.I haven't had a chance to study Lefty's cast this way but I did spend a lot of time reviewingJeff's (and a few others) cast in slo mo and I found the same thing. His stop is very definite andextremely well directed but then there is the drift/follow through to set up for the forward cast whichmakes it hard to see the stop at regular speed.CheersWalter----- Original Message -----From: Gordon HillTo: whorwood@xxxxxxxxx ; flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx ; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx ; rtab@xxxxxxx ; CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx ; creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; daver@xxxxxxxxxx ; dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ephemera@xxxxxxx ; brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx ; barefootj@xxxxxxx ; bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx ; mkreider1@xxxxxxx ; martyt@xxxxxxxxxx ; niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx ; pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; bigfly@xxxxxxxxx ; flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; sheila@xxxxxxxxxx ; scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; tharper@xxxxxxxxxxxCc: sportfisher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; caddis@xxxxxxx ; Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx ; cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx ; crazycharlie@xxxxxxx ; croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx ; DermSox@xxxxxxx ; gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx ; gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx ; hillshead@xxxxxxx ; iverson@xxxxxxxxx ; jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx ; jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx ; captsilverking@xxxxxxx ; till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx ; plami@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx ; simbirsw@xxxxxxx ; bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx ; hillcathy@xxxxxxx ; dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx ; douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx ; flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx ; gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx ; hlhpc@xxxxxxx ; jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx ; harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx ; skifishvail@xxxxxxxx ; jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; trallag@xxxxxxx ; captflyrod@xxxxxxx ; mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; fraudflies@xxxxxxx ; shane@xxxxxxxxx ; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxxSent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 8:12 AMSubject: RE: Casting in an ovalRick...
I've had many an opportunity to study Lefty's style.
First, let me point out that Lefty (and Joan Wulff) often switch styles whenever necessary for any particular fishing circumstance. His, "style", then becomes his default (usual) way of casting under most circumstances. That's a very important teaching concept.......for a truly expert caster can use virtually any style when needed.
Lefty's style is a LOW ELBOW, OFF- VERTICAL ROD PLANE style characterized by a modified elliptical cast in which the back cast and forward casts are in a slightly different rod plane. The back cast with a more horizontal rod plane; the forward cast in a more off-vertical plane.
Important to his style is that he brings his back cast rod tip way back with one motion rather than to a stop followed by a drift. His back cast stop is with the rod almost horizontal. This is for distance casting. It's modified for short casts.
He makes the point that this back cast is aimed BACK AND UP.....not, BACK AND DOWN. He changes trajectory (line plane) whenever necessary.
For most of his back casts, his rod tip is below the level of his head, and is sometimes literally at shoulder level.
He has found that this makes the best use of his body habitus and muscle arrangement.......It's efficient, comfortable, easy to learn and does not violate any of the ESSENTIALS. As such it is one of several good styles. It fits another definition of a good style: "SELF OPTIMIZATION".
As you analyze the casts of most experts, you will see that almost all of them are, to a slight degree, elliptical......as defined by a change of rod planes between the back cast and the forward cast. Stand in front or in back of one of them and concentrate on their rod planes and you will see what I mean. (hard to tell from the side.) Lefty goes one step further in increasing this........and the so-called, "Belgian cast" is much more so. The big difference between Lefty's style and that of the, "Belgian" or, "European continuous tension" casts lies in the fact that with those, the back cast loop turnover is different in that there is not the defined stop, full loop straightening, and reversal of direction for the forward stroke. This yields not even instantaneous loss of tension......hence the name.
Gordy
From: "Rick Whorwood" <whorwood@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Casting in an oval
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:39:02 -0600
Hi GordyThere is an interesting thread on the Sexyloops board about Lefty's casting style, the thread starts off about Jerry S. I've not read all of it as of yet, only the last couple of pages. I would like to hear your thought's on this. I'm a little confused as to Lefty's back stroke (would you call his an under-hand or under the tip style?) They are describing it as a Belgian style??