Randy....
Your comment about the, "sweetness" of bamboo rods is hard to describe in physics terms. Gets closer to the poetry of the entire casting experience.
I have a one piece, 7' 5 wt. bamboo rod custom made for me by Bob Sholiton of Chicago for salt water with titanium hardware. It's a joy to cast......I love it for sea trout, ladyfish (Chiro), small bonefish, and even baby tarpon. (He made it without a ferrule because of the difficulty of maintaining even modern metal ferrules in the salt.)
He even made an octagonal rod case out of coconut wood for it, and a custom fitted velvet cover for that !!!!!!!!!!!!
I fish it with a titanium, WATERWORKS large arbor reel which is unbelievably light. (Purist II).
Gordy
From: "Randy Olson" <bigfly@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Fw: RE: FW: FW: FW: loops Fall?
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 23:58:34 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Olson" <bigfly@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Randy Olson" <bigfly@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: FW: FW: FW: loops Fall?
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 23:57:05 -0500
From: "Randy Olson" <bigfly@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Randy Olson" <bigfly@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: FW: FW: FW: loops Fall?
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 23:57:05 -0500
Instead of tarpon rods in my previous post, however, the comparative heaviness of bamboo could also contribute to their "sweetness" Troy and Al spoke of a couple months ago. Self loading, steady tracking etc.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randy Olson" <bigfly@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: FW: FW: FW: loops Fall?
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 23:10:44 -0500
>
>
> More gun analogies in honor of my crappy day I had at work...(kidding.)
>
> Just like heavier bullets are less affected by "windage" the same holds
> true for heavier fly lines vs. lighter lines (when cast correctly and at
> the same comparative line speed...of course higher line speed can
> compensate for the lighter line.)
>
> Snipers also prefer the heavier M14 vs the M16 because the rifle itself
> is heavier...able to hold more steady
>
> Steel shafted irons in golf feel more solid to many golfers than
> the lighter graphite for the same reason.
>
> Obviously, we would not use tarpon rods on the Bighorn however...
>
> -Randy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gordon Hill"
> To: flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx, sobbobfish@xxxxxxx, rtab@xxxxxxx,
> CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx, creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
> dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, daver@xxxxxxxxxx, dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
> captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx,
> ephemera@xxxxxxx, brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx, barefootj@xxxxxxx,
> bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx, ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
> captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx, mkreider1@xxxxxxx,
> martyt@xxxxxxxxxx, niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx, pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
> bigfly@xxxxxxxxx, whorwood@xxxxxxxxx, flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
> sheila@xxxxxxxxxx, scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx, cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
> tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: FW: FW: FW: loops Fall?
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:52:15 -0500
>
> ol Al....
>
> My calculations on the line wts. was done with the assumption that a
> small, light fly is being used. Once you go to a heavy/large fly,
> that does require a heavier system.....note that for better results
> you need a heavier SYSTEM.....often not enough simply to increase the
> wt. designation of the line.
>
> Gordy
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry Puckett"
> <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Mc Quary"
> <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>,"Gary
> Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>,"Travis Burt"
> <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny Hinojosa"
> <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis Burns"
> <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell"
> <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson"
> <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"John
> Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dale Connally"
> <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"gordon Hill"
> <hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"Steve
> Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas"
> <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt Wilhem"
> <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC Clower"
> <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"james
> Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"James Russell"
> <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary
> Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder"
> <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay Roberts"
> <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy Alexander"
> <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble"
> <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow"
> <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"john Deardorff"
> <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"david Bradley"
> <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"Troy Miller"
> <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"ol
> Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Don McCurry"
> <donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Kevin Hensley"
> <jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ronnie Ray" <Ronnie.Ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: FW: FW: FW: loops Fall?
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 15:34:39 -0600
> < BR>
>
> Howdy Troy. IF you are right in your statement. The expert rifle
> shooters would use 400 grain bullets for shooting distance. not the 27
> CAL or .222 cal The small surface of the smaller line will have less
> drag. (NO FLY) just line. Now the 9 weight line will drag a big fly along
> that the 4 will not. This is the light high speed vs. the heavy power
> house. it take much more energy to get the big line moving. The mass in
> movement is going to keep moving unless acted on by out side forces. like
> air drag. The greater Surface area of the 9 wt line offers more linier
> air drag also. ol Al Allen Crise FFF Master Casting InstructorSOC VP of
> EducationHawk Ridge Flycasting School2508 A County Road 1011Glen Rose, TX
> 76043254-897-2045geocities.com/rrdoctorflysoup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Message-----
> From: Miller, Troy [mailto:Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 3:04 PM
> To: Gordon Hill; flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx; rtab@xxxxxxx;
> CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx; creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> daver@xxxxxxxxxx; dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx; captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx; ephemera@xxxxxxx; brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx;
> barefootj@xxxxxxx; bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx;
> mkreider1@xxxxxxx; martyt@xxxxxxxxxx; niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx;
> pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; bigfly@xxxxxxxxx; whorwood@xxxxxxxxx;
> flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; sheila@xxxxxxxxxx; scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx;
> cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: sportfisher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx; caddis@xxxxxxx;
> Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx; cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> crazycharlie@xxxxxxx; croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> DermSox@xxxxxxx; gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx; gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> iverson@xxxxxxxxx; jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx; jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx;
> captsilverking@xxxxxxx; till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx; plami@xxxxxxxxxxx; ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx; simbirsw@xxxxxxx; bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> hillcathy@xxxxxxx; dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx; donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx; erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx; flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx;
> gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx; hlhpc@xxxxxxx; jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx; harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx;
> skifishvail@xxxxxxxx; jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx; trallag@xxxxxxx;
> captflyrod@xxxxxxx; mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; fraudflies@xxxxxxx; shane@xxxxxxxxx;
> snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?
>
> Again, I failed to make myself clear. I meant to write that the 9-weight
> line is used on a 9-weight rod of the same manufacturer?s rod series. I
> completely agree that you would seriously overload the 4-weight rod
> (probably to the point of breakage) if you attempted to distance cast the
> 9-weight line on the 4-weight rod.
>
> So, let me try to say it again, more clearly this time.
>
> If I take a Miller Manufacturing ?Blister? series rod, expertly designed
> to cast a 4-weight flyline and loaded it with a standard WF4F flyline of
> any reputable manufacture, I might expect to get an 80 foot cast out of
> it. Then, I take a Miller Manufacturing ?Blister? series rod designed to
> cast a 9-weight flyline and load it up with a standard 9-weight WF line
> and cast it for max distance. I believe I?ll be able to cast well in
> excess of 100 feet with this setup. The reason is that I?ve got
> considerably more momentum with the 9-weight, and although I may not have
> quite the muzzle velocity, my retained energy downrange is much greater
> with the heavier bullet. Does that paint a better picture, hopefully?
>
> Regarding overlining/underlining a rod, I agree with everything you wrote
> and have for 20+ years. Thanks
>
> Regards -- TAM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 2:25 PM
> To: Miller, Troy; flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx; rtab@xxxxxxx;
> CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx; creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> daver@xxxxxxxxxx; dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx; captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx; ephemera@xxxxxxx; brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx;
> barefootj@xxxxxxx; bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx;
> mkreider1@xxxxxxx; martyt@xxxxxxxxxx; niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx;
> pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; bigfly@xxxxxxxxx; whorwood@xxxxxxxxx;
> flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; sheila@xxxxxxxxxx; scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx;
> cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: sportfisher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx; caddis@xxxxxxx;
> Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx; cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> crazycharlie@xxxxxxx; croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> DermSox@xxxxxxx; gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx; gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> hillshead@xxxxxxx; iverson@xxxxxxxxx; jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx; captsilverking@xxxxxxx; till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx; plami@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx; simbirsw@xxxxxxx;
> bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx; hillcathy@xxxxxxx; dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx;
> donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx; douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx;
> erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx; flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx; gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> hlhpc@xxxxxxx; jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx; skifishvail@xxxxxxxx;
> jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx; trallag@xxxxxxx; captflyrod@xxxxxxx;
> mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> fraudflies@xxxxxxx; shane@xxxxxxxxx; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?
>
> Troy....
>
> Depends upon the rating of that, "particular" rod. This will make a
> mountain of difference. Here's what I mean.
>
> If you are casting a rod designed to best handle a #4 line (A so-called
> 4-wt. rod) then you can cast a 4 wt. line farther than you can a 9 wt.
> line....because that 9 wt. line will overload your rod.
>
> Should you wish to make a really long distance cast with that 4 wt. rod,
> you would do best with a lower rated line...say a 3 wt. line or even a 2
> wt. line.......because these lines "become" 4 and 5 wt. lines as you
> carry more and more line out of the rod tip before your presentation
> cast.
>
> Now let's take the rod designated as a 9 wt.rod. This one is designed
> to handle a 9 wt. line for short (30+ feet) casts. You can make longer
> casts, but when you do you go toward overloading the rod as you get to
> carry say 70' of line. For that reason, you will more easily make very
> long casts by underlining this 9 wt. rod with an 8 wt. or a 7 wt. line.
> A 4 wt. line would require more line carried out of the rod tip to,
> "become" a 9 wt. line........and you might, then, be carrying more line
> than you can handle properly.
>
> The general rule is that for long belly lines usually used for distance
> casting, you increase the wt. of the line carried by each 5' to 6' of
> line beyond the first 30'........so a 7 wt. line becomes approximately a
> 9 wt. line when you carry 45' of line out of the rod tip when false
> casting. It becomes a 10 wt. line as you carry 50' while false casting.
>
> Now that arithmatic increase in line wt. formula must be modified for
> short belly lines where it is true only for the length of the
> belly.....then the line wt, beyond that point increases less as length
> increases because you are out in the running line which weighs less per
> foot.
>
> The converse is true :-
>
> I sometimes over-line a rod if I'm to be making very short, "quick casts"
> as with some tarpon fishing where the fish may show up only 20' from me.
> Here, I'll load my 10 wt. fly rod with a 12 wt. line. That 12 wt. line
> becomes a 10 wt. at about 15' to 20' !!!! If I don't use that heavier
> line, I may not be able to load my rod sufficiently to throw a tarpon fly
> accurately.
>
> Anyone contemplating these line calculations (or virtually anything to do
> with fly lines) should study Bruce Richards', MODERN FLY LINES.
>
> Gordy
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: "Miller, Troy" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:40:55 -0600
>
> I may not have made my point very clearly, I realized it after
> sending. What I mean is that if I have an ?average? WF4F line on a
> particular rod and make my longest cast, it will be NOWHERE NEAR as
> far as if I made the cast with an ?average? WF9F line on a rod of the
> same rod series, everything else held constant. Of course, this
> reaches a point of impracticality based on human physiology. I
> believe I could probably cast the ?average? 9-wt further than an
> ?average? 25-wt because I would not have sufficient strength to
> achieve any appreciable tip speed or rod loading with the heavy
> setup. KnowhatImean?
>
> Regards -- TAM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 1:33 PM
> To: Miller, Troy; flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx;
> rtab@xxxxxxx; CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx; creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; daver@xxxxxxxxxx; dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx;
> captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> ephemera@xxxxxxx; brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx; barefootj@xxxxxxx;
> bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx; ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx; mkreider1@xxxxxxx;
> martyt@xxxxxxxxxx; niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx; pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> bigfly@xxxxxxxxx; whorwood@xxxxxxxxx; flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> sheila@xxxxxxxxxx; scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx; cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: sportfisher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx; caddis@xxxxxxx;
> Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx; cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> crazycharlie@xxxxxxx; croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx; DermSox@xxxxxxx; gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx;
> gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx; hillshead@xxxxxxx; iverson@xxxxxxxxx;
> jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx; jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx;
> captsilverking@xxxxxxx; till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> plami@xxxxxxxxxxx; ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx;
> simbirsw@xxxxxxx; bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx; hillcathy@xxxxxxx;
> dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx; donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx; erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx; gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx; hlhpc@xxxxxxx;
> jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx;
> harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx; skifishvail@xxxxxxxx;
> jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx; trallag@xxxxxxx; captflyrod@xxxxxxx;
> mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> fraudflies@xxxxxxx; shane@xxxxxxxxx; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?
>
> Troy....
>
> Yes.... a line which is heavier/foot is more dense. The more dense
> it is, the smaller its diameter for the same mass. That translates
> into a line of the same weight designation travelling with less
> air/wind resistance......and, therefore, greater distance achieved
> with the same energy input by the caster.
>
> That is one of several reasons for my using a sinking (dense) line
> even when fishing on the flats on days when the wind is really
> howling.
>
> It might be the reason for excluding these lines for most competition
> casting events.
>
> Gordy
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: "Miller, Troy" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bwrichards@xxxxxxx>, "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
> CC: "Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>, "Rusty dunn"
> <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,
> "Ron Mc Quary" <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Clay Roberts"
> <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Sonny Hinojosa"
> <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>, "Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,
> "david Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>, "dave Speer"
> <dave@xxxxxxxxx>, "Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>, "Dennis Burns"
> <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Don McCurry"
> <donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Matt Wilhem"
> <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>,
> "ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>,
> "gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>, "Harvey Harris"
> <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>, "james Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
> "Kevin Hensley" <jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>, "john Deardorff"
> <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jerry Puckett"
> <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>, "James Russell"
> <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>, "Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
> "Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "keith Richard"
> <KRichard@xxxxxxx>, "LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Harry
> Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Marshall Lasswell"
> <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Rod Henderson"
> <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Stacy Trimble"
> <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Steve Hollensed"
> <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Steve Barlow"
> <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
> "John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "jeff jackson"
> <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:12:49 -0600
> I'll add one thing to your final sentence, Bruce, which I believe
> to be
> equally significant.
>
> You wrote "a tight loop going fast goes farthest."
>
> Please consider: "a tight loop of heavy line going fast goes
> farthest."
>
> I know that we can get into a discussion of the diameter of the
> line and
> air resistance, and that we should consider the density rather
> than the
> weight of the flyline, yadda yadda, -- but for now, I'd just
> simplify it
> as above.
>
> Regards -- TAM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bwrichards@xxxxxxx [mailto:bwrichards@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 9:06 AM
> To: Allen Crise
> Cc: Gary Wood; Rusty dunn; cindy Alexander; Ron Mc Quary; Clay
> Roberts;
> Sonny Hinojosa; Dale Connally; david Bradley; dave Speer; Don
> DeRidder;
> Dennis Burns; Don McCurry; Matt Wilhem; Wes Hodgson; ol Al; Gary
> Eaton;
> gordon Hill; Harvey Harris; james Parker; Kevin Hensley; john
> Deardorff;
> Jerry Puckett; James Russell; Ken Cole; Ron Allen Thomas; keith
> Richard;
> LC Clower; Harry Boyd; Marshall Lasswell; Rod Henderson; Stacy
> Trimble;
> Steve Hollensed; Steve Barlow; Travis Burt; John Till; jeff
> jackson;
> Miller, Troy
> Subject: Re: FW: FW: loops Fall?
>
>
> Hi Al,
> Yes, the easiest way to study the loop is to consider it like a
> bead
> chain
> and study what each bead does and the forces that act on it.
> Below is a
> study done by Noel and one of his students that addresses the
> issue of
> why
> loops don't fall as quickly as some might expect. Lots of math,
> but the
> conclusion is simple and clear.
> I'm not sure I understand the discussion of loop leg lengths,
> obviously
> they are constantly changing. The simplest way to look at loops
> is in
> this
> context.
> Loop front speed will always be equal to the (speed of the top
> leg + the
> speed of the bottom leg)/2. How far a cast will travel, and at
> what
> speed
> is determined by how much energy is put into the line, and how
> efficiently
> the loop is shaped. Just reconfirms what we've all known all
> along, a
> tight
> loop going fast goes farthest.
> Bruce
> (See attached file: Loopdrag.pdf)
> Scientific Anglers/3M
> 4100 James Savage Rd.
> Midland, MI 48642 USA
> Tel: 989-496-1113
> Fax: 989-496-3374
>
>
>
>
> "Allen Crise"
>
> <flysoup@xxxxxxxx
>
> et>
> To
> "Rod Henderson"
>
> 02/27/2006 08:18 <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> AM "Jerry Puckett"
>
> <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Ron Mc Quary"
>
> <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Wes Hodgson"
> <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>
> "Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>
>
> "Travis Burt"
> <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> "Sonny Hinojosa"
>
> <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Dennis Burns"
>
> <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Marshall Lasswell"
>
> <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "jeff jackson"
>
> <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Rusty dunn"
> <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> "John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Dale Connally"
>
> <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>
> "keith Richard"
> <KRichard@xxxxxxx>
> "Steve Hollensed"
>
> <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Ron Allen Thomas"
>
> <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Matt Wilhem"
>
> <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "LC Clower"
> <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> "Ken Cole"
> <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> "james Parker"
>
> <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "James Russell"
>
> <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Gary Wood"
>
> <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>
>
> "dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Clay Roberts"
>
> <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "cindy Alexander"
>
> <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Stacy Trimble"
>
> <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Steve Barlow"
>
> <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "john Deardorff"
>
> <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "david Bradley"
>
> <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Troy Miller"
>
> <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>
>
> "ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Don McCurry"
>
> <donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> "Kevin Hensley"
>
> <jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>
> cc
> "Bruce Richards"
>
> <bwrichards@xxxxxxx>
>
>
> Subject
> FW: FW: loops Fall?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Howdy students and Gordy
> When the study of the loop is done the only way the study can, at
> this
> time, is in small section much like a tank track. Our engineers
> only
> work
> in straight vectors. So the tank track is one theory of what
> keeps the
> loop
> in the air. It is my belief that if the rod leg was not dragging
> the
> bottom
> of the loop it would not maintain is rotation and collapse. IF
> both of
> the
> legs were the same length you would not have the drag needed. In
> fact if
> we
> add a fly we get different loop curvatures. You case I will bet
> that the
> rod leg was longer and had the drag of the belly of the line
> adding the
> needed drag for turn over of the loop. Yes it reduced the drag
> and
> increased the time until turn-over of the fly leg was completed.
> Yes we are going to have to do some study on this or as you say
> BRUCE?
>
> Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
> SOC VP of Education
> Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
> 2508 A County Road 1011
> Glen Rose, TX 76043
> 254-897-2045
> geocities.com/rrdoctor
> flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 7:03 AM
> To: flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: FW: loops Fall?
>
>
>
> ol Al...
>
>
> Troy is correct, in my opinion.
>
>
> The closest thing I've witnessed to the loop, "going on forever"
> occurred
> when one of our practical jokers cut the running line so that his
> buddy's
> distance cast would be a thing to behold. With so much resistance
> lost,
> the loop went out to the horizon. There was still enough rod leg
> of the
> loop left that the loop did turn over, but not until amazing
> distance
> had
> been reached and gravity took over.
>
>
> I suspect that if one cut the fly line so that the fly leg and
> the rod
> leg
> of the loop were the same length and weight that the loop would
> not
> unroll
> at all before coming to Earth........but I havn't actually tried
> that.
>
>
> We need to train one of our astronauts to make some casts in
> outer
> space.
> That would tell us what really happens there.
>
>
>
> Gordy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry Puckett"
> <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Mc Quary"
> <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Wes
> Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>,"Gary Eaton"
> <geaton@xxxxxxx>,"Travis
> Burt"
> <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny Hinojosa"
> <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis
> Burns"
> <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell"
> <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson"
> <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty
> dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"John Till"
> <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dale
> Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"gordon Hill"
> <hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"Steve
> Hollensed"
> <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas"
> <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt Wilhem"
> <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC
> Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken Cole"
> <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"james
> Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"James Russell"
> <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary
> Wood"
> <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"dave
> Speer"
> <dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay Roberts"
> <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy
> Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble"
> <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow"
> <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"john Deardorff"
> <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"david Bradley"
> <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"Troy Miller"
> <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"ol
> Al"
> <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Don McCurry"
> <donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Kevin
> Hensley" <jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: FW: loops Fall?
> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 06:35:34 -0600
>
> Howdy Gang and TROY
> You are right But what you added I would call "out side forces".
> Air
> density,will increase the drag, the Core of the line will make it
> harder
> for the loop to bend, The temperature of course in space would
> also
> prevent the line from even forming a loop. The idea that the loop
> is
> many
> small section that have an action much like the tracks on a tank
> or
> bulldozer that will "climb" on the air is also some of what
> happens to
> the
> loop. As many of you know the study of just what makes that loop
> stay
> aloft is something that you could do for year. My statement is
> such
> that I
> left it open with just the adding of Outside forces. Gravity
> being the
> biggie.
> Thanks Troy. I should have made that more clear.
> ol Al
>
>
> Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
> SOC VP of Education
> Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
> 2508 A County Road 1011
> Glen Rose, TX 76043
> 254-897-2045
> geocities.com/rrdoctor
> flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Miller, Troy [mailto:Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 12:56 AM
> To: Allen Crise
> Subject: RE: loops Fall?
>
> I don't agree that good loops will go on forever - unless you're
> in
> outer
> space. Here on earth, air resistance and gravity will both take
> their
> toll on our loops. I agree that we have favorable lift dynamics
> helping
> reduce the effect of gravity to SOME extent, but they don't
> compensate
> 100% IMHO. The work done in bending and unbending our flyline
> also
> gradually reduces the available energy as a loop unrolls. We
> don't
> really
> talk much about that, but I believe Bruce would concur, if we
> made our
> flyline with a ridiculously stiff coating, it would not travel
> very far
> at
> all and the loop would stop turning over.
>
> Then when we get into shooting line, that adds a guide friction
> term
> into
> the equation... It gets really complicated if you try to include
> all
> of the
> pertinent factors.
>
> Regards -- TAM
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allen Crise [mailto:flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 1:04 PM
> To: Rod Henderson; Jerry Puckett; Ron Mc Quary; Wes Hodgson; Gary
> Eaton;
> Travis Burt; Sonny Hinojosa; Dennis Burns; Marshall Lasswell;
> jeff
> jackson; Rusty dunn; John Till; Dale Connally; gordon Hill; keith
> Richard;
> Steve Hollensed; Ron Allen Thomas; Matt Wilhem; LC Clower; Ken
> Cole;
> james
> Parker; James Russell; Harry Boyd; Gary Wood; Don DeRidder; dave
> Speer;
> Clay Roberts; cindy Alexander; Stacy Trimble; Steve Barlow; john
> Deardorff; david Bradley; Miller, Troy; Harvey Harris; ol Al; Don
> McCurry;
> Kevin Hensley
> Subject: loops Fall?
>
> Howdy Long line casters
> picked this off of Gordy's Mail
> First paragraph is from Tom Cooper
> After the **** is Bruce Richards.
>
>
>
>
> NOTE: If we held 60' at the end of the last cast there would be
> 30' out
> on
>
>
> the rod leg to loop center, 30' out from the center of the loop
> back
> the
>
>
> fly leg to above the rod tip, and 30' from that point back to the
> fly
>
>
> leaving 60' on the fly leg. (At a loop speed of 80 feet per
> second the
> fly
>
>
> would touch down in under .375 seconds).
>
>
> *****We have proven mathematically what we visually see. Good
> loops
>
>
> (tight, top pointed) defy gravity through some interesting wind
> resistance
>
>
> dynamics. Although a stationary loop dropped from normal height
> might
> hit
>
>
> the ground in .375 sec., a good loop will drop very little until
> it
>
>
> straightens. Watch any good caster carrying 80 ft. of line. If
> gravity
> was
>
>
> the only force acting on the line the loop would hit the ground
> before
> it
>
>
> went very far.
>
>
>
> So good loops will go on for ever unless acted on by out side
> forces or
> the length of your line.....
>
>
>
>
>
> ol Al
> Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
> SOC VP of Education
> Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
> 2508 A County Road 1011
> Glen Rose, TX 76043
> 254-897-2045
> geocities.com/rrdoctor
> flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
>