John...
You've covered a couple of very important points, here.
The concept of the loop being always connected to the rod tip is important as an explanation to the very reason that loop continues to unroll even when shooting line. You must have some resistance to forward flight to the rod leg or the loop won't unroll.
Having said that, I'll also note that that resistance can come from another scource than that of friction between the running line and the tip top.....as in the case of a fly line cut way back in the shooting line. That loop will unroll if the cut-off rod leg is longer than the remaining fly leg because of the additional atmospheric resistance to and the inertia of that longer leg.......until gravity takes over . In that contrived case, the connection between the loop and the rod tip is gone.
One example of what happens when you have no resistance at all was noted one day when I was fishing in Alaska on a heavily silted glacial river. The volcanic silt on my fly line wore a grove in my tip top. On one distance cast, the line shot out....then divided at the damaged tip top. That loop never did unroll.....just kept travelling to the other side of the river. It landed on the tundra on the opposite bank in a loop layout proving the point.
While one cannot change the direction of that loop once formed at RSP, one can do other things....like having it unroll early with a check haul, or dipping, raising, thrusting, or moving the rod tip quickly to the side. If this is done immediately after loop formation, it can alter the shape of the loop. If violent, it can tear that loop open.
Your point of paying attention to what happens to the rod tip after the stop (and a fraction of a second later after RSP) is well taken. Drifting back in the direction of the unrolling loop on the back cast is one valuable technique, as is the so-called, "Lefty's stab"......during which you thrust the rod tip in the direction of the loop on either the back cast or forward cast. A third technique which accomplishes almost the same thing, is the, "Lay-back" used by Gary Borger and described by his son, Jason Borger, ...THE NATURE OF FLY CASTING, pp. 232-233.
Some casters combine these techniques when distance casting. All three are really ways of controlling the tip of the rod after the cast.
Gordy
Gordy
From: "John Wilson" <flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: hillshead@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 15:52:36 +0000
Gordon:
A loop is always connected to the rod tip. The old way of thinking is that you can't have anything to do with a loop once the stop has been made. Personally I'm not totally sure that is true. Here are a couple of drills to try which will help casters carry more line.
While false casting a long line try raising the rod tip and watch what effect it has on the loop falling. Then try dramatically dropping the rod tip to the ground. The effects are not quite as great when shooting line but they are still there.
A few years ago I was having trouble "ticking" in competitions. Steve Rajeff pointed out that I was dropping my rod tip while false casting. It was a bit of a eureka moment. I was also having troubles with loops crashing to the ground, my back cast had a huge open wedge in it, and a whole list of issues that I was afraid to admit, were cured instantly when I started paying attention to my rod tip "after" the stop.
John
>From: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>To: Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx,
>sobbobfish@xxxxxxx, rtab@xxxxxxx, CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx,
>creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, dan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>daver@xxxxxxxxxx, dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
>captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>ephemera@xxxxxxx, brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx, barefootj@xxxxxxx,
>bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx, mkreider1@xxxxxxx, martyt@xxxxxxxxxx,
>niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx, pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, bigfly@xxxxxxxxx,
>whorwood@xxxxxxxxx, flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, sheila@xxxxxxxxxx,
>scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx, cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
>CC: sportfisher@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
>caddis@xxxxxxx, Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx, crazycharlie@xxxxxxx,
>croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx, DermSox@xxxxxxx,
>gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx, gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx, hillshead@xxxxxxx,
>iverson@xxxxxxxxx, jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx, jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx,
>captsilverking@xxxxxxx, till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>plami@xxxxxxxxxxx, ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx,
>simbirsw@xxxxxxx, bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx, hillcathy@xxxxxxx,
>dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx, donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx, erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx, gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx, hlhpc@xxxxxxx,
>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx, skifishvail@xxxxxxxx,
>jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx, trallag@xxxxxxx, captflyrod@xxxxxxx,
>mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>fraudflies@xxxxxxx, shane@xxxxxxxxx, snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
>Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?
>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:32:50 -0500
>
>
>Troy....
>
>Yes.... a line which is heavier/foot is more dense. The more dense
>it is, the smaller its diameter for the same mass. That translates
>into a line of the same weight designation travelling with less
>air/wind resistance......and, therefore, greater distance achieved
>with the same energy input by the caster.
>
>That is one of several reasons for my using a sinking (dense) line
>even when fishing on the flats on days when the wind is really
>howling.
>
>It might be the reason for excluding these lines for most
>competition casting events.
>
>
>Gordy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: "Miller, Troy" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: <bwrichards@xxxxxxx>, "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
>CC: "Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>, "Rusty dunn"
><caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,
>"Ron Mc Quary" <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Clay Roberts"
><CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Sonny Hinojosa"
><csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>, "Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,
>"david Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>, "dave Speer"
><dave@xxxxxxxxx>, "Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>, "Dennis Burns"
><Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Don McCurry"
><donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Matt Wilhem"
><educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>, "ol
>Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>, "gordon
>Hill"
><hillshead@xxxxxxx>, "Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>, "james Parker"
><james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Kevin Hensley" <jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>,
>"john Deardorff" <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jerry Puckett"
><jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>, "James Russell"
><jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>, "Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Ron
>Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "keith Richard"
><KRichard@xxxxxxx>, "LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Harry Boyd"
><maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Marshall Lasswell" <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
>"Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Stacy Trimble"
><stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Steve Hollensed"
><stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Steve Barlow"
><steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
>"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "jeff jackson"
><tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: RE: FW: FW: loops Fall?
>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:12:49 -0600
>I'll add one thing to your final sentence, Bruce, which I believe to
>be
>equally significant.
>
>You wrote "a tight loop going fast goes farthest."
>
>Please consider: "a tight loop of heavy line going fast goes
>farthest."
>
>I know that we can get into a discussion of the diameter of the line
>and
>air resistance, and that we should consider the density rather than
>the
>weight of the flyline, yadda yadda, -- but for now, I'd just
>simplify it
>as above.
>
>Regards -- TAM
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: bwrichards@xxxxxxx [mailto:bwrichards@xxxxxxx]
>Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 9:06 AM
>To: Allen Crise
>Cc: Gary Wood; Rusty dunn; cindy Alexander; Ron Mc Quary; Clay
>Roberts;
>Sonny Hinojosa; Dale Connally; david
>Bradley; dave Speer; Don DeRidder;
>Dennis Burns; Don McCurry; Matt Wilhem; Wes Hodgson; ol Al; Gary
>Eaton;
>gordon Hill; Harvey Harris; james Parker; Kevin Hensley; john
>Deardorff;
>Jerry Puckett; James Russell; Ken Cole; Ron Allen Thomas; keith
>Richard;
>LC Clower; Harry Boyd; Marshall Lasswell; Rod Henderson; Stacy
>Trimble;
>Steve Hollensed; Steve Barlow; Travis Burt; John Till; jeff jackson;
>Miller, Troy
>Subject: Re: FW: FW: loops Fall?
>
>
>Hi Al,
>Yes, the easiest way to study the loop is to consider it like a bead
>chain
>and study what each bead does and the forces that act on it. Below
>is a
>study done by Noel and one of his students that addresses the issue
>of
>why
>loops don't fall as quickly as some might expect. Lots of math, but
>the
>conclusion is simple and clear.
>I'm not sure I understand the discussion of loop leg lengths,
>obviously
>they are constantly changing. The simplest way to look at loops is
>in
>this
>context.
>Loop front speed will always be equal to the (speed of the top leg +
>the
>speed of the bottom leg)/2. How far a cast will travel, and at what
>speed
>is determined by how much energy is put into the line, and how
>efficiently
>the loop is shaped. Just reconfirms what we've all known all along,
>a
>tight
>loop going fast goes farthest.
>Bruce
>(See attached file: Loopdrag.pdf)
>Scientific Anglers/3M
>4100 James Savage Rd.
>Midland, MI 48642 USA
>Tel: 989-496-1113
>Fax: 989-496-3374
>
>
>
>
>"Allen Crise"
>
><flysoup@xxxxxxxx
>
>et>
>To
>"Rod Henderson"
>
>02/27/2006 08:18 <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>AM "Jerry Puckett"
>
><jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Ron Mc
>Quary"
>
><codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Wes Hodgson"
><fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>
>"Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>
>
>"Travis Burt"
><tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>"Sonny Hinojosa"
>
><csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Dennis Burns"
>
><Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Marshall Lasswell"
>
><mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"jeff jackson"
>
><tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Rusty dunn"
><caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Dale Connally"
>
><Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>
>"keith Richard"
><KRichard@xxxxxxx>
>"Steve Hollensed"
>
><stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Ron Allen Thomas"
>
><koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Matt Wilhem"
>
><educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"LC
>Clower"
><lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>"Ken Cole"
><ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>"james Parker"
>
><james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"James Russell"
>
><jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Gary Wood"
>
><brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>
>
>"dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Clay Roberts"
>
><CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"cindy Alexander"
>
><calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Stacy Trimble"
>
><stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Steve Barlow"
>
><steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"john Deardorff"
>
><jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"david Bradley"
>
><dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Troy Miller"
>
><Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Harvey Harris"
><Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>
>
>"ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Don McCurry"
>
><donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>"Kevin Hensley"
>
><jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>
>cc
>"Bruce Richards"
>
><bwrichards@xxxxxxx>
>
>
>Subject
>FW: FW: loops Fall?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Howdy students and Gordy
>When the study of the loop is done the only way the study can, at
>this
>time, is in small section much like a tank track. Our engineers only
>work
>in straight vectors. So the tank track is one theory of what keeps
>the
>loop
>in the air. It is my belief that if the rod leg was not dragging the
>bottom
>of the loop it would not maintain is rotation and collapse. IF both
>of
>the
>legs were the same length you would not have the drag needed. In
>fact if
>we
>add a fly we get different
>loop curvatures. You case I will bet that the
>rod leg was longer and had the drag of the belly of the line adding
>the
>needed drag for turn over of the loop. Yes it reduced the drag and
>increased the time until turn-over of the fly leg was completed.
>Yes we are going to have to do some study on this or as you say
>BRUCE?
>
>Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
>SOC VP of Education
>Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
>2508 A County Road 1011
>Glen Rose, TX 76043
>254-897-2045
>geocities.com/rrdoctor
>flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx]
>Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 7:03 AM
>To: flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: RE: FW: loops Fall?
>
>
>
>ol Al...
>
>
>Troy is correct, in my opinion.
>
>
>The closest thing I've witnessed to the loop, "going on forever"
>occurred
>when one
>of our practical jokers cut the running line so that his
>buddy's
>distance cast would be a thing to behold. With so much resistance
>lost,
>the loop went out to the horizon. There was still enough rod leg of
>the
>loop left that the loop did turn over, but not until amazing
>distance
>had
>been reached and gravity took over.
>
>
>I suspect that if one cut the fly line so that the fly leg and the
>rod
>leg
>of the loop were the same length and weight that the loop would not
>unroll
>at all before coming to Earth........but I havn't actually tried
>that.
>
>
>We need to train one of our astronauts to make some casts in outer
>space.
>That would tell us what really happens there.
>
>
>
>Gordy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
>To: "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry
>Puckett"
><jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Mc Quary"
><codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Wes
>Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>,"Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>,"Travis
>Burt"
><tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis
>Burns"
><Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell"
><mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson"
><tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty
>dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dale
>Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"gordon Hill"
><hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"Steve
>Hollensed"
><stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas"
><koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC
>Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken
>Cole"
><ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"james
>Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"James Russell"
><jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary
>Wood"
><brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"dave
>Speer"
><dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay Roberts"
><CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy
>Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble"
><stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow"
><steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"john Deardorff"
><jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"david Bradley"
><dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"Troy Miller"
><Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"ol
>Al"
><flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Don McCurry" <donmcmurry@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Kevin
>Hensley" <jargo432@xxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: FW: loops Fall?
>Date: Mon, 27 Feb
>2006 06:35:34 -0600
>
>Howdy Gang and TROY
>You are right But what you added I would call "out side forces". Air
>density,will increase the drag, the Core of the line will make it
>harder
>for the loop to bend, The temperature of course in space would also
>prevent the line from even forming a loop. The idea that the loop is
>many
>small section that have an action much like the tracks on a tank or
>bulldozer that will "climb" on the air is also some of what happens
>to
>the
>loop. As many of you know the study of just what makes that loop
>stay
>aloft is something that you could do for year. My statement is such
>that I
>left it open with just the adding of Outside forces. Gravity being
>the
>biggie.
>Thanks Troy. I should have made that more clear.
>ol Al
>
>
>Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
>SOC VP of Education
>Hawk Ridge
>Flycasting School
>2508 A County Road 1011
>Glen Rose, TX 76043
>254-897-2045
>geocities.com/rrdoctor
>flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Miller, Troy [mailto:Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 12:56 AM
>To: Allen Crise
>Subject: RE: loops Fall?
>
>I don't agree that good loops will go on forever - unless you're in
>outer
>space. Here on earth, air resistance and gravity will both take
>their
>toll on our loops. I agree that we have favorable lift dynamics
>helping
>reduce the effect of gravity to SOME extent, but they don't
>compensate
>100% IMHO. The work done in bending and unbending our flyline also
>gradually reduces the available energy as a loop unrolls. We don't
>really
>talk much about that, but I believe Bruce would concur, if we made
>our
>flyline with a ridiculously stiff coating, it would
>not travel very far
>at
>all and the loop would stop turning over.
>
>Then when we get into shooting line, that adds a guide friction term
>into
>the equation... It gets really complicated if you try to include all
>of the
>pertinent factors.
>
>Regards -- TAM
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Allen Crise [mailto:flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx]
>Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 1:04 PM
>To: Rod Henderson; Jerry Puckett; Ron Mc Quary; Wes Hodgson; Gary
>Eaton;
>Travis Burt; Sonny Hinojosa; Dennis Burns; Marshall Lasswell; jeff
>jackson; Rusty dunn; John Till; Dale Connally; gordon Hill; keith
>Richard;
>Steve Hollensed; Ron Allen Thomas; Matt Wilhem; LC Clower; Ken Cole;
>james
>Parker; James Russell; Harry Boyd; Gary Wood; Don DeRidder; dave
>Speer;
>Clay Roberts; cindy Alexander; Stacy Trimble; Steve Barlow; john
>Deardorff; david Bradley; Miller, Troy;
>Harvey Harris; ol Al; Don
>McCurry;
>Kevin Hensley
>Subject: loops Fall?
>
>Howdy Long line casters
>picked this off of Gordy's Mail
>First paragraph is from Tom Cooper
>After the **** is Bruce Richards.
>
>
>
>
>NOTE: If we held 60' at the end of the last cast there would be 30'
>out
>on
>
>
>the rod leg to loop center, 30' out from the center of the loop back
>the
>
>
>fly leg to above the rod tip, and 30' from that point back to the
>fly
>
>
>leaving 60' on the fly leg. (At a loop speed of 80 feet per second
>the
>fly
>
>
>would touch down in under .375 seconds).
>
>
>*****We have proven mathematically what we visually see. Good loops
>
>
>(tight, top pointed) defy gravity through some interesting wind
>resistance
>
>
>dynamics. Although a stationary loop dropped from normal height
>might
>hit
>
>
>the
>ground in .375 sec., a good loop will drop very little until it
>
>
>straightens. Watch any good caster carrying 80 ft. of line. If
>gravity
>was
>
>
>the only force acting on the line the loop would hit the ground
>before
>it
>
>
>went very far.
>
>
>
>So good loops will go on for ever unless acted on by out side forces
>or
>the length of your line.....
>
>
>
>
>
>ol Al
>Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
>SOC VP of Education
>Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
>2508 A County Road 1011
>Glen Rose, TX 76043
>254-897-2045
>geocities.com/rrdoctor
>flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
>
>
>
>