Jim....
In your first paragraph, you say, " .......the release of tension at the stop ......"
Did you mean to imply that you must release at the stop.......and do we go on to assume that you mean the stop of the rod hand???......or the line hand??
(I'm rattling your chain.....but , technicallly, there is a difference. As you correctly pointed out a few messages ago, all this is way too much for our students to handle. To a competition distance caster it's very important.)
Gordy
From: "JFV" <jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "'Gordon Hill'" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: STOP of the line hand
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:48:13 -0500
Gordy,
Steve makes a great Clarification! It is not the stop of the line hand that matters; it is the TENSION (haul) and the RELEASE OF TENSION at the Stop, or? energy transfer (J Borger, ALE).(Acceleration, Loop Formation and Energy Transfer)
I have been re-reading, well actually contemplating/studying Mac Brown, Casting Angles, (amazing how much I missed the first time), also the reason my answers have been getting more complicated than necessary, but there?s a wealth of understanding there. Mac makes the point about hauling past the stop having a negative effect on the cast, combine that with Steve?s release point and Jason?s Energy Transfer and I think we have learned something.
I know my next practice session will be focused on Release point and Total Energy Transfer Timing. I think there?s a few more feet of distance here!
Something to look for in distance casting lessons, I wonder how many good distance casters are inadvertently taking back a few feet from their own cast?
Just for the record though, I will continue to teach ?matching the haul with the stroke? (Start and Stop), This (above) is Deeper Understanding Stuff not necessarily Teaching Stuff for every student, remember the student?s perspective! And as Gordy pointed out to me in a recent email ?Keep it Simple? (goes for teaching and testing, and testing? is about teaching!)
Jim V
MCI
From: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 1:06 PM
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Subject: Re: STOP of the line hand
Walter...
My comments in BOLD CAPS in your text.
Gordy
From: WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: STOP of the line hand
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:16:36 -0500
Gordy - If we aren't hauling then the ideal place to release line (i.e. the point where the most efficient transfer of energy occurs) when shooting line but without hauling is the rsp. This is the exact point where the rod tip begins to decelerate and, therefore, the line speed will now exceed the speed of the rod tip. Release a bit early and part of the energy stored in the rod will be lost (not transferred to the line). Release a bit laterI AGREE WITH THIS....BUT YOU DIDN'T TELL US WHAT YOU THINK HAPPENS WHEN YOU RELEASE A BIT LATER.
This is also true when hauling. Releasing too early is obviously bad. If we haul past the rsp we could conceivably impart more energy (which translates into additional speed) but now the haul and rod load would be working against each other and resulting in inefficient transfer of energy. If you are able to add additional speed to the line with your line hand then you are best to do it before the rod reaches rsp for efficient energy transfer.HERE, YOU DO. AGAIN, I AGREE.
Continuing to haul all the way to rsp leads to efficiently increased line speed. This is true even if biomechanics mean that the larger muscle groups are not involved at this point. This is similar to a javelin thrower using a wrist flip just at the end of his throw to get the last little bit of energy into the throw. Up to that point there is no point in doing the wrist flip because you would be detracting from the energy transfer from the larger/stronger muscle groups of the arm, legs, back, shoulders, etc.GOOD POINT. WE'LL SHARE THIS.
Gordy
From: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
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Subject: Re: STOP of the line hand
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:48:48 -0500Jim....
I see.
Now we have input from Steve Rajeff who feels that the line hand STOP is not as important as the point at which you release the line as the conclusion or the haul. He points out that sometimes distance casters release the line with the line hand on the haul without ever stopping the hand motion.
Gordy
From: "jimpenrod" <t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: STOP of the line hand
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:23:21 -0500Gordy,
Yes the stop of the haul hand was meant to match the stroke
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Hill
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Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 7:17 AM
Subject: RE: STOP of the line hand
Jim....
I agree.
But you have not answered my question, unless I can infer that by matching the haul to the stroke includes the timing of the STOP OF THE HAUL HAND.
Gordy
From: "JFV" <jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "'Gordon Hill'" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: STOP of the line hand
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:38:11 -0500Hi Gordy & Group,
Very appropriate question as I have been working on my distance and hauls.
First let me say that when teaching the haul an instructor should consider the level of the student and then decide how much detail the student will be able to handle.
Matching the haul to the stroke seems to be the least confusing.
A couple of questions on hauling:
1.) Do you think there is merit in making a sudden crisp STOP with the line hand at the conclusion of your haul when trying for maximum distance ?
The alternative is a deceleration (or decrease in the rod load), which will slow the line down thus decreasing the potential of the haul (line speed ?distance).
2.) Should you make that line hand stop at the exact time you make the stop with the rod hand ?
If you haul after the rod Stop you are pulling the line backwards and actually removing energy from the system! Counter-productive!
Jim Valle
MCI
From: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 8:19 PM
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Subject: STOP of the line hand
Group:
A couple of questions on hauling:
1.) Do you think there is merit in making a sudden crisp STOP with the line hand at the conclusion of your haul when trying for maximum distance ?
2.) Should you make that line hand stop at the exact time you make the stop with the rod hand ?
Gordy