Jim...
Yours is a prime example of self teaching. When you go through a scenario like this, you are not just "parroting" information memorized........you have gained an in depth UNDERSTANDING. That is the high level of learning required of successful MCI candidates.
Once you have attained that level of knowledge, you are in a position to contribute to the available body of fly-casting knowledge. You also have a much better understanding of the difficulties students may have with casting concepts.
Gordy
From: "JFV" <jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "'Gordon Hill'" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: Back casts
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:51:09 -0500
Hi Gordy & Group,
The discussion below relating to the SLP of the rod tip and NOT the rod/hand really made me remember a major understanding I had to take myself through.
?The one with the finger tracing a straight line is OK for representing a SLP of the ROD TIP......but you must remember that during most casting, the hand does NOT travel in a straight line even when the rod tip does. This is even more true as the cast gets longer. Some instructors are still teaching that in order to have a straight line path of the rod tip, you have to have a straight line path of the hand. That might be true if there were no bend in the rod, but that's not what happens with a real loaded fly rod.? G Hill
I was absolutely determined to totally understand the rod bend / SLP and hand path.
Read all kinds of stuff drove a couple BOG?s nuts with questions (Some of whom responded with probing questions that forced me to take drugs ?aspirin!)
But the bottom line for me was proving it to myself and here is how I did it. (not all of this is necessary, but I was determined and desperate to try anything in search of the answer)
- Made a mini fly rod/line from a coffee stirrer and rubber band and traced the movement on paper (honestly this didn?t prove much)
- The Best
- With graph paper I drew to scale a 9? rod in the RSP and in a loaded configuration (assume 1? or so lost in the bend, thus the 9? rod is now only 8? above your hand)
- Starting from the loaded backcast stop position I drew the path of the rod tip and line to the forward cast stop position through RSP and counterflex
- Recognizing that a loaded bent 9? rod had to pass through a full 9? RSP length (pure physics) something had to change to maintain the SLP
- You will see that it is impossible to achieve a SLP of the rod tip AND maintain a straight line of the hand. At the same time.
- From there you can figure out why thrusting extends the SLP of a distance cast.
This was a major breakthrough for me. I hope it will be for anyone interested. I am certain it has helped my teaching.
One word of caution, once you start this be prepared to hang in there till you really understand it!
Jim Valle
MCI
From: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 11:55 AM
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Subject: Re: Back casts
Walter...
Agreed. Let's pass this string of messages on to our Group.
Gordy
From: Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Back casts
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:44:37 -0700Gordy,
Actually the slp of the hand vs the rod is another reason why I don't care for the finger tracing the line.
Jason Borger's method is much better for the basic casting stroke because the hand moves in an
arc rather than a straight line. I often do Jason's pantomime version of this at work or when driving.
The dowel with a loop at one end sliding over a taut rope or string has the disadvantage that it can't
simulate the bend in the rod, which in turn affects the stroke, so I don't recommend it for practising
the basic casting stroke. It does have the advantage of allowing free movement of the hand/wrist/arm/etc.
in all 3 dimensions while constraining the "tip" to a straight line. I also find it a good exercise for practising
drift. It's interesting how many different ways you can move your hand through space and maintain
a straight path of the rod tip. Another useful thing I find is that when practising the stop on the back cast
it prevents you from breaking your wrist.
Of course some of this is to make up for the fact that we are in subzero temperatures at the moment and
I need some time to psych myself up to practice in the snow. ;-)
Cheers
Walter
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Hill
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Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: Back casts
Walter....
These are all good ideas......except for the SLP of the hand.
The one with the finger tracing a straight line is OK for representing a SLP of the ROD TIP......but you must remember that during most casting, the hand does NOT travel in a straight line even when the rod tip does. This is even more true as the cast gets longer. Some instructors are still teaching that in order to have a straight line path of the rod tip, you have to have a straight line path of the hand. That might be true if there were no bend in the rod, but that's not what happens with a real loaded fly rod.
Using a mirror out to the side to check hand/elbow motion is something I learned from Joan Wulff. Very effective.(Check out p 27 of her book). Also check the diagrams of her hand motions on p. 36 and p 44.....and the depiction of the elliptical motion of the hand during false casting shown on p. 63.
Also, study the chapter, "The Foundation Casting Stroke & The Three Phases" in Jason Borger's book. As you do, take note of his hand motion diagrams, especially figure 2-22b on page 36 which depicts a frame-by-frame sequence of a forward cast made by him with a fairly good SLP of the rod tip as the hand moves down and forward in a with a curved path.
I can't retrieve the detailed back cast message I sent to you....can you dig it out and bounce it back to me ?
Gordy
From: WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Back casts
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:21:06 -0700
Gordy - The advice is VERY much appreciated and I have no problem with sharing with the group. There were some very good ideas that I hadn't considered before.
My basic problem is that my tracking isn't good when I get into a longer casting
stroke. In order to compensate for this I end up introducing other bad habits (such
as using too much arc) but once I have the tracking thing down I expect everything
else will take care of itself. My basic approach has been to practice repetitive
casts with a length of line that I have very good control with and then gradually
increase the amount of line. I don't exceed the amount that I can handle well during
my practice sessions and this keeps bad habits from creeping in and becoming
ingrained.
As you noted it can be difficult to watch your backcast on longer casts so I use
a makeshift fly-o which I find very useful for identifying faults. The family cat
certainly enjoys these training sessions. :)
Now that winter has descended on Calgary I plan to spend the winter months working
on tracking by improving flexibility and by using a casting aid I've rigged up at
home that consists of a long string and a dowel with small loop of wire at the end.
The string is strung tightly just below the basement rafters and I put the loop
over the string and practice my casting motion with the loop sliding back and forth
along the string. I find this is very good for educating the hand in all planes
as to what a slp feels like.
I've also been told to draw a horizontal line on a wall and work on tracking by
sliding my finger tip back and forth along the line in a simulated casting motion.
This works very well for educating the hand/arm vertically but I find the wall
may actually act as a crutch for horizontal tracking. I find a good exercise
is to stand in front of a mirror and watch the hand track as I mimic casting.
Cheers
Walter
From: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
To: simbirsw@xxxxxxx
Subject: Back casts
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:30:37 -0500Walter....
May I have your OK to sent our banter on Back casts to the Group ?
Gordy