Walter...
Good observations. Comments:
When I said, "all's fair in love and war" as an analogy to fishing casts, perhaps I should have included distance tournament casting.....at least within the rules.
I don't think you mean to imply (as some might assume) that he has a two stage haul on his back cast as I didn't note any pause or slowdown between the first part of his back cast haul and the remainder. Correct me if I'm wrong about your meaning.
Gordy
From: Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:06:25 -0700
Gordy - When we take a close look at Jeff Wagner's video (close up from his casting side) he has a veryinteresting stroke. On his back cast he has completed the rotation of the rod (opened his wrist) aftervery little hand travel - around a foot or so. At this point he has performed a very short haul. From herehe does a very long thrust and haul and finally completes the backward cast with a short amountof drift (by the time he finishes the stroke he is almost out of arm so the drift has to be short).On the forward portion of the cast he performs a very long stroke and haul and when hisarm is almost straight he closes his wrist. This is followed by a very short thrust with a shorthaul and finally a bit of drift. The rotational part of the cast occurs in almost the same physicallocation (roughly a foot in front of his body) for both the front and back cast.Obviously Jeff is in a very advanced category of caster but this is not what we would teachas desireable style. Again - it goes back to fishing vs casting. I would be curious to see howhis cast in these videos compares to his "normal" casting stroke when fishing.Keep up the great conversations! These really get the brain working and are greatly appreciatedalong with the quizzes.Also - thanks for all the tips for improving my backcast. I've been seeing a markedimprovement in this past week. I still have a way to go before I'm ready for the test but I'mquite happy with the improvement so far.CheersWalter----- Original Message -----From: Gordon HillTo: paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx ; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx ; rtab@xxxxxxx ; CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx ; creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; dwright@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; daver@xxxxxxxxxx ; dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ephemera@xxxxxxx ; brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx ; keysjake@xxxxxxx ; barefootj@xxxxxxx ; bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx ; mkreider1@xxxxxxx ; martyt@xxxxxxxxxx ; niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx ; pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; bigfly@xxxxxxxxx ; whorwood@xxxxxxxxx ; flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; sheila@xxxxxxxxxx ; scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx ; tomwhite@xxxxxxxxxxxxCc: mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; caddis@xxxxxxx ; Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx ; cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx ; crazycharlie@xxxxxxx ; croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx ; DermSox@xxxxxxx ; gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx ; gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx ; hillshead@xxxxxxx ; iverson@xxxxxxxxx ; jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx ; jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx ; kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx ; plami@xxxxxxxxxxx ; ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx ; simbirsw@xxxxxxx ; bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx ; hillcathy@xxxxxxx ; dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx ; douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx ; flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx ; hlhpc@xxxxxxx ; jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx ; harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx ; skifishvail@xxxxxxxx ; jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx ; trallag@xxxxxxx ; captflyrod@xxxxxxx ; mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; fraudflies@xxxxxxx ; shane@xxxxxxxxx ; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxxSent: Friday, January 13, 2006 7:58 PMSubject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALSPaul...
We are getting a little complicated for many in our Group, here.
My brief comments in your text in BOLD CAPS.
Gordy
From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:32:15 -0000
Hi Gordy,
The reason I'd like to see casting arc included in (3) is because it deals with progressive
rod bending and is quite specific. It's possible to make a long cast a short stroke length,
underhand casting styles for example. Bruce Richards reckons drag [translational rod movement
pre-butt rotation] removes slack, Bill Gammel thinks it removes sag, I think it adds Kinetic
Energy. It probably does all three. But I don't think increasing stroke length is an essential
whereas widening the casting arc most certainly is.I AGREE THAT, "STROKE LENGTH" DOESN'T COVER IT ALL. AS I LOOK AT IT , TIP TRAVEL IS MOST IMPORTANT......A COMBINATION OF STROKE LENGTH, ROD (CASTING) ARC, AND ANY OTHER TRANSLATIONAL MOVEMENTS IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CAST. (WE MUST REMEMBER THAT BACK WHEN THESE WERE WRITTEN, MANY WERE USING THE TERM, "STROKE LENGTH" TO MEAN WHAT WE NOW CALL, "TIP TRAVEL".)
PRE-BUTT ROTATION, "PULL", "DRAG" OR ANY TRANSLATIONAL MOTION IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CAST PROBABLY DOES REMOVE SLACK AND SAG AND ADDS KINETIC ENERGY.......ALL THREE (AS I SEE IT.)
(6) is very interesting. Something I teach, is to say "stop harder". What is someone
doing when they think "stop harder"? Hopefully they're squeezing the hand, which
results in rotating the butt at the end of the stroke, which is "proper power application".I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT. FLOYD FRANKE PUTS IT THIS WAY WHEN HE TEACHES THIS : "SQUEEZE TO A STOP". HELPS A LOT WITH ACCURACY CASTING, TOO.
I'd like to say I knew the answer here, but I don't. The argument for an abrupt
stop is that it gives a more efficient transfer of energy from rod to line, but on a
170 casting arc I reckon that most of that energy has already been transferred
before the stop. Where's the stop on a swoop or a thrust, for example?
If it's at the end of thrust the rod's hit RSP, energy's been transferred and you may as
well drop the rod.YES. THIS IS GROUND UPON WHICH FEW DARE TO TROD !.......WE RISK BEING CALLED HERETICS.
ON THE SO-CALLED, "THRUST CAST" AS WELL AS THE, "SWOOP" IT DOES APPEAR THAT YOU'VE ALREADY GONE PAST RSP. HERE, THE TRUE STOP IS WHEN, "YOU RUN OUT OF ARM". OF COURSE THE ROD IS STRAIGHT AT THE END OF THE THRUST.....BUT THAT MAY HAVE OCCURRED A SPLIT SECOND EARLIER.
I'VE SEEN LEFTY DEMO THIS AND LITERALLY DROP THE ROD ON THE GROUND AFTER THE THRUST. THE LOOP SHOOTS OUT WITH TREMENDOUS SPEED AND ITS DIRECTION IS UNCHANGED.
BEST NOT TO TEACH THAT THRUST WIND CAST EXCEPT TO ADVANCED CASTERS WHO HAVE ENOUGH CONTROL TO AVOID ELBOW INJURY.
Sorry I know this is not very good teaching for a study group. Some day we'll
know everything and then we'll try our best to forget it all.
Incidentally I find emphasising "power application" as opposed to "stop" can have
a more positive effect. Just a different way of getting the same stroke nailed.I HOPE WE NEVER DO KNOW EVERYTHING ! IT WOULD BE LIKE FINDING THE, "NEVER-FAIL" FLY.
I DO SO LOVE GETTING INTO SUPER DETAIL....BUT I DON'T WANT OUR GROUP TO LOSE SIGHT OF THE FOREST FOR SAKE OF TOO MANY TREES.
Gordy
Cheers,
Paul
PS I can't believe Tip Travel has already been invented; we'll have to come
up with something different.
PPS I shouldn't have eaten beans last night.
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
>Paul....
>
>Interesting points.
>
>On 3.)....."Short cast: short stroke, Long cast: long stroke" is, as
>we both know, a gross oversimplification. For the long cast, we
>need a long distance travel for the rod tip. We don't need it for
>the short cast. Of course, this is tip travel is produced by the
>combination of many things, including rod arc (casting arc), stroke
>length (as defined by the distance moved by the hand) and, with very
>long casts, the caster's body motion. Even a step forward during the
>delivery stroke adds to that tip travel.
>
>(Incidentally, the first reference in the casting literature I could
>find was in J.C. Mottram's book, FLY CASTING, originally published
>in 1921. So the term is a resurrection not a new coining.)
>
>On 6.) One can have a whimpy stop (a mush) and still get the fly
>out there on target......but is that the most efficient way to do it
>?......I think not.
>
>I simply can't make anywhere near the distance on my distance cast
>with a soft stop. Just can't do it !
>
>You call attention to the concept of crisp application of power.
>Now if we have that anywhere in the stroke except in juxtaposition
>to the stop, we have a spike of power.......high liklihood of a
>tailing loop.
>
>Having said that, I realize fully that there are many casts which
>are done well with hardly a stop, or even no real stop. These
>include certain curve casts such as the corkscrew cast, the
>helicopter cast, and other decelerating curve casts....in fact, any
>purposely decelerated cast. It certainly includes the, "no stop" of
>the back cast during what has been called the, "European continuous
>tension cast" as well as other elliptical casts including the
>so-called, "Belgian cast".
>
>As I happen to look at it, a crisp stop is an essential for
>so-labelled, "straight line overhead casting"......NOT ALL CASTING,
>BY ANY MEANS. If we look at it that way, you are absolutely CORRECT.
>
>
>Gordy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 05:19:38 -0000
> Hi Gordy,
> I've been thinking about the essentials listed below and I don't
>agree that [6] is an essential.
> I think what's really happening when a caster is thinking about
>making an abrupt stop
> is that he's really making a crisp power application [5]. There
>are quite a few "stopless" casting styles
> including the TLT and Austrian style - which as you know is how
>most Continental Europeans cast.
> I know that runs contrary to much of what we teach but many
>distance casters don't use an
> abrupt stop either but integrate drift/swoop into their stroke. I
>just sort of flop the rod over
> and hope.
> I used to think that the stop was the most important thing in
>flycasting, I now think it restricts
> distance.
>
> I think [3] should be or include proper casting arc.
>
> I hope you're getting some good fishing.
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
>
> > Group...
> >
> > Following a suggestion by Molly Semenik, I have one more
> >question on the 5 (or 6) ESSENTIALS.
> >
> > In your own words, describe what you would do to demonstrate
> >clearly to a group of fly casting students, each essential. You
>may >use a fly outfit or any other teaching prop or tool.
> >
> > 1.) Straight Line Path of Rod Tip - I have a short (one foot)
> >section of a rod tip complete with tip top guide. It enables me to
> >hold the short section up to eye level and while moving it back
>and >forth as per casting strokes, I can use the other hand to
>clearly >demonstrate the straight line path by accompanying the rod
>tip with >the flat palm of my other hand.
> >
> > 2.) Eliminate Slack - When teaching, I always stress this very
> >early in the lesson. I have always liked and used Lefty's way of
> >putting this. With the line laying out about 30' with a bit of
> >slack, he points to the fly and leader and states: "Ain't nothing
> >gonna happen until that fly starts to move." After stating that
> >fact, I demonstrate how much of the back stroke is wasted pulling
> >out slack that was not removed. I also, to indicate the
>uselessness >of slack in casting and to interject a little levity as
>a bit of an >ice breaker, use the analogy of a drunk pulling a chain
>down the >street, when asked by a very proper lady, why he is
>pulling a chain, >he replies, "Lady, did you ever try pushing one of
>these things?"
> >
> > 3.) Short Line - Short Stroke, Long Line - Long Stroke - I use
> >analogies here also. To indicate proper stroke length, I pantomine
> >throwing a line-drive baseball, which requires a short straight
>line >throw/stroke for a close throw and a longer straight stroke
>for a >longer ball. I also have the student watch the rod as I make
>longer >strokes while adding line.
> >
> > 4.) Pause - I like to use the term -Timely Pause - With
> >beginners I try to have them temporarily adapt to a 90% stance and
> >watch their back cast straighten (almost straighten). This has a
> >dual-fold purpose, as it allows them to see the line trajectory
>and >often helps to keep their back casts up where they belong. If
>the >individual has trouble watching their back cast, I revert again
>to >one of Lefty's old methods. I ask them where they are from, and
>I >instruct them to make a back cast while pausing long enough to
>state >their name and where they are from. It works like a charm on
>a 30' >cast.
> >
> > 5.) Proper Application of Power. - When explaining power and
> >how to apply it, I have started to use a term that I believe our
>own >Gordy has coined, and that is "An accelerated acceleration to a
> >stop", I have never heard it explained better. For this all
> >important step I also use hands on guidance with permission. There
> >are many analogies for this also, such as driving in low gear then
> >shifting to second and finally high.
> > 6.) Abrupt Stop - When trying to explain the importance of the
> >stop, I allude to the elite distance caster's (Steve Rajeff)
>words, >when he was asked: What do the best casters do that other's
>fail to >do? And he replied; "They stop the rod." As to
>demonstrating this, I >again like to, with permission of course, use
>hands on. It is a >wonderful way to have the student actually feel
>the abruptness of >the required stop. Here again there are many
>visual aids we can >apply, throwing water at a wall off of a paint
>brush, slinging an >apple from a dowel rod and so on.
> > Since I have a plethora of beginners here in the Catskills, I
> >have printed out little cards (laminated) with the essentials
>listed >and hand them out at the end of a one day lesson. I tell
>them to put >them in their wallet or purse and refer to them if
>necessary when >they are practicing, and then I always add; "You do
>plan to >practice, don't you?"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>