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FW: STYLE
- Subject: FW: STYLE
- Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:48:00 -0500
From: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
CC: simbirsw@xxxxxxx
Subject: STYLE
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:10:47 -0700
Walter,
I would like to make a brief comment if I may.
First as Gordy noted the haul for any caster as well as the stroke for
distance
must be continuous and continuously incresing in velocity to a stop (sorry
Paul, there is a stop, I would like to consider your infromation in a later
e-mail).
Second you mentioned
"this is not what we
would teach as desireable style."
I am curious what you mean by teaching a desirable style. A desirable
style is
one that gets good results for an individual while maintaining basic
fundamentals of casting (essentials if you will). In which case the
end result
would be desirable for the cast videoed and the style would be
desirable because
of the end result and look of the cast (good loops, high line speed, good
distance, etc).
So, if I have a student that shows signs of making body motions similar to
the
video you mentioned I will most certainly suggest this style. However,
a style
is very individualistic and and has NOTHING to do with the outcome of the
cast
(if all essentials are met). It is for that reason called style. Whether
it
would be anyone of various casting styles making an attempt at say
100ft (Kreh,
Wulff, Rajeff, Hill, White, etc) each may have a very tight loop and a
straight
line path to the rod tip and cover all of the essentials but the body
motions
that would make up the style would be very different. I would say that some
styles would might more efficient in certain situations. And that many
casters
use many different styles. However, each caster has a default style
they revert
to when in a stable environment. Studying a casters style can give
light into
how a caster may improve and to assist them in being more accurate, getting
more distance or changing their motions to cast in varying conditions (wind,
cover, etc).
However, this is not to say that one style is better than another.
Again style
is individualistic. The way a persons body moves, their stature,
flexibility,
athleticism, fishing conditions, and more all determine the style a
caster will
use. This should be taken into consideration before teaching any style as
teaching a style that does not fit a caster may hinder their learning
ability
down the road.
This is a subject that gets blown over to often. it is my belief that
we are to
teach casting (the essentials) and HELP the student FIND their STYLE, not
find
it for them. The learning curve of the student may depend on this.
Teaching an improper style to a student as noted above may
unneccessarily hinder
the student.
My plan as of now is to teach a course at next years conclave on finding,
teaching, and working on style issues as they relate to the substance part
of
the cast.
Sorry I guess that was a little more than a brief comment.
--
Jeff Wagner
Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
Redington Pro Staff
970-481-5887
jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.dhflyfishing.com
Quoting Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>:
Walter... Good observations. Comments: When I said, "all's fair in
love and war" as an analogy to fishing casts, perhaps I should have
included distance tournament casting.....at least within the rules. I
don't think you mean to imply (as some might assume) that he has a two
stage haul on his back cast as I didn't note any pause or slowdown between
the first part of his back cast haul and the remainder. Correct me if I'm
wrong about your meaning.
Gordy -------------------------
From: /Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>/
To: /Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
Subject: /Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS/
Date: /Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:06:25 -0700/
Gordy - When we take a close look at Jeff Wagner's video (close up from his
casting side) he has a very interesting stroke. On his back cast he has
completed the rotation of the rod (opened his wrist) after very little hand
travel - around a foot or so. At this point he has performed a very short
haul. From here he does a very long thrust and haul and finally completes
the backward cast with a short amount of drift (by the time he finishes the
stroke he is almost out of arm so the drift has to be short). On the
forward portion of the cast he performs a very long stroke and haul and
when his arm is almost straight he closes his wrist. This is followed by a
very short thrust with a short haul and finally a bit of drift. The
rotational part of the cast occurs in almost the same physical location
(roughly a foot in front of his body) for both the front and back cast.
Obviously Jeff is in a very advanced category of caster but this is not
what we would teach as desireable style. Again - it goes back to fishing
vs casting. I would be curious to see how his cast in these videos compares
to his "normal" casting stroke when fishing. Keep up the great
conversations! These really get the brain working and are greatly
appreciated along with the quizzes. Also - thanks for all the tips for
improving my backcast. I've been seeing a marked improvement in this past
week. I still have a way to go before I'm ready for the test but I'm quite
happy with the improvement so far. Cheers Walter ----- Original
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shane@xxxxxxxxx ; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx SENT: Friday, January 13, 2006 7:58
PM SUBJECT: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS Paul... We are getting a little
complicated for many in our Group, here. My brief comments in your text in
BOLD CAPS.
Gordy
-------------------------
From: /"Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[1]>/
Reply-To: /"Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[2]>/
To: /"Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx[3]>/
Subject: /Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS/
Date: /Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:32:15 -0000/
Hi Gordy,
The reason I'd like to see casting arc included in (3) is because it deals
with progressive
rod bending and is quite specific. It's possible to make a long cast a
short stroke length,
underhand casting styles for example. Bruce Richards reckons drag
[translational rod movement
pre-butt rotation] removes slack, Bill Gammel thinks it removes sag, I
think it adds Kinetic
Energy. It probably does all three. But I don't think increasing stroke
length is an essential
whereas widening the casting arc most certainly is. I AGREE THAT, \"STROKE
LENGTH\" DOESN'T COVER IT ALL. AS I LOOK AT IT , TIP TRAVEL IS MOST
IMPORTANT......A COMBINATION OF STROKE LENGTH, ROD (CASTING) ARC, AND ANY
OTHER TRANSLATIONAL MOVEMENTS IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CAST. (WE MUST
REMEMBER THAT BACK WHEN THESE WERE WRITTEN, MANY WERE USING THE TERM,
\"STROKE LENGTH\" TO MEAN WHAT WE NOW CALL, \"TIP TRAVEL\".) PRE-BUTT
ROTATION, \"PULL\", \"DRAG\" OR ANY TRANSLATIONAL MOTION IN THE DIRECTION
OF THE CAST PROBABLY _DOES_ REMOVE SLACK AND SAG AND ADDS KINETIC
ENERGY.......ALL THREE (AS I SEE IT.)
(6) is very interesting. Something I teach, is to say "stop harder". What
is someone
doing when they think "stop harder"? Hopefully they're squeezing the hand,
which
results in rotating the butt at the end of the stroke, which is "proper
power application". I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT. FLOYD FRANKE PUTS IT THIS WAY
WHEN HE TEACHES THIS : \"SQUEEZE TO A STOP\". HELPS A LOT WITH ACCURACY
CASTING, TOO.
I'd like to say I knew the answer here, but I don't. The argument for an
abrupt
stop is that it gives a more efficient transfer of energy from rod to line,
but on a
170 casting arc I reckon that most of that energy has already been
transferred
before the stop. Where's the stop on a swoop or a thrust, for example?
If it's at the end of thrust the rod's hit RSP, energy's been transferred
and you may as
well drop the rod. YES. THIS IS GROUND UPON WHICH FEW DARE TO TROD
!.......WE RISK BEING CALLED HERETICS. ON THE SO-CALLED, \"THRUST CAST\"
AS WELL AS THE, \"SWOOP\" IT DOES APPEAR THAT YOU'VE ALREADY GONE PAST RSP.
HERE, THE TRUE STOP IS WHEN, \"YOU RUN OUT OF ARM\". OF COURSE THE ROD IS
STRAIGHT AT THE END OF THE THRUST.....BUT THAT MAY HAVE OCCURRED A SPLIT
SECOND EARLIER. I'VE SEEN LEFTY DEMO THIS AND LITERALLY DROP THE ROD ON
THE GROUND AFTER THE THRUST. THE LOOP SHOOTS OUT WITH TREMENDOUS SPEED AND
ITS DIRECTION IS UNCHANGED. BEST NOT TO TEACH THAT THRUST WIND CAST EXCEPT
TO ADVANCED CASTERS WHO HAVE ENOUGH CONTROL TO AVOID ELBOW INJURY.
Sorry I know this is not very good teaching for a study group. Some day
we'll
know everything and then we'll try our best to forget it all.
Incidentally I find emphasising "power application" as opposed to "stop"
can have
a more positive effect. Just a different way of getting the same stroke
nailed. I HOPE WE NEVER DO KNOW EVERYTHING ! IT WOULD BE LIKE FINDING
THE, \"NEVER-FAIL\" FLY. I DO SO LOVE GETTING INTO SUPER DETAIL....BUT I
DON'T WANT OUR GROUP TO LOSE SIGHT OF THE FOREST FOR SAKE OF TOO MANY
TREES. GORDY
Cheers,
Paul
PS I can't believe Tip Travel has already been invented; we'll have to come
up with something different.
PPS I shouldn't have eaten beans last night.
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
Paul....
Interesting points.
On 3.)....."Short cast: short stroke, Long cast: long stroke" is, as we
both know, a gross oversimplification. For the long cast, we need a long
distance travel for the rod tip. We don't need it for the short cast. Of
course, this is tip travel is produced by the combination of many things,
including rod arc (casting arc), stroke length (as defined by the distance
moved by the hand) and, with very long casts, the caster's body motion.
Even a step forward during the delivery stroke adds to that tip travel.
(Incidentally, the first reference in the casting literature I could find
was in J.C. Mottram's book, FLY CASTING, originally published in 1921. So
the term is a resurrection not a new coining.)
On 6.) One can have a whimpy stop (a mush) and still get the fly out there
on target......but is that the most efficient way to do it ?......I think
not.
I simply can't make anywhere near the distance on my distance cast with a
soft stop. Just can't do it !
You call attention to the concept of crisp application of power. Now if we
have that anywhere in the stroke except in juxtaposition to the stop, we
have a spike of power.......high liklihood of a tailing loop.
Having said that, I realize fully that there are many casts which are done
well with hardly a stop, or even no real stop. These include certain curve
casts such as the corkscrew cast, the helicopter cast, and other
decelerating curve casts....in fact, any purposely decelerated cast. It
certainly includes the, "no stop" of the back cast during what has been
called the, "European continuous tension cast" as well as other elliptical
casts including the so-called, "Belgian cast".
As I happen to look at it, a crisp stop is an essential for so-labelled,
"straight line overhead casting"......NOT ALL CASTING, BY ANY MEANS. If we
look at it that way, you are absolutely CORRECT.
Gordy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 05:19:38 -0000
Hi Gordy,
I've been thinking about the essentials listed below and I don't agree
that [6] is an essential.
I think what's really happening when a caster is thinking about making an
abrupt stop
is that he's really making a crisp power application [5]. There are quite
a few "stopless" casting styles
including the TLT and Austrian style - which as you know is how most
Continental Europeans cast.
I know that runs contrary to much of what we teach but many distance
casters don't use an
abrupt stop either but integrate drift/swoop into their stroke. I just
sort of flop the rod over
and hope.
I used to think that the stop was the most important thing in flycasting,
I now think it restricts
distance.
I think [3] should be or include proper casting arc.
I hope you're getting some good fishing.
Cheers,
Paul
> Group...
>
> Following a suggestion by Molly Semenik, I have one more >question on
the 5 (or 6) ESSENTIALS.
>
> In your own words, describe what you would do to demonstrate >clearly
to a group of fly casting students, each essential. You may >use a fly
outfit or any other teaching prop or tool.
>
> 1.) Straight Line Path of Rod Tip - I have a short (one foot) >section
of a rod tip complete with tip top guide. It enables me to >hold the short
section up to eye level and while moving it back and >forth as per casting
strokes, I can use the other hand to clearly >demonstrate the straight
line path by accompanying the rod tip with >the flat palm of my other
hand.
>
> 2.) Eliminate Slack - When teaching, I always stress this very >early
in the lesson. I have always liked and used Lefty's way of >putting this.
With the line laying out about 30' with a bit of >slack, he points to the
fly and leader and states: "Ain't nothing >gonna happen until that fly
starts to move." After stating that >fact, I demonstrate how much of the
back stroke is wasted pulling >out slack that was not removed. I also, to
indicate the uselessness >of slack in casting and to interject a little
levity as a bit of an >ice breaker, use the analogy of a drunk pulling a
chain down the >street, when asked by a very proper lady, why he is
pulling a chain, >he replies, "Lady, did you ever try pushing one of these
things?"
>
> 3.) Short Line - Short Stroke, Long Line - Long Stroke - I use
>analogies here also. To indicate proper stroke length, I pantomine
>throwing a line-drive baseball, which requires a short straight line
>throw/stroke for a close throw and a longer straight stroke for a
>longer ball. I also have the student watch the rod as I make longer
>strokes while adding line.
>
> 4.) Pause - I like to use the term -Timely Pause - With >beginners I
try to have them temporarily adapt to a 90% stance and >watch their back
cast straighten (almost straighten). This has a >dual-fold purpose, as it
allows them to see the line trajectory and >often helps to keep their back
casts up where they belong. If the >individual has trouble watching their
back cast, I revert again to >one of Lefty's old methods. I ask them where
they are from, and I >instruct them to make a back cast while pausing long
enough to state >their name and where they are from. It works like a charm
on a 30' >cast.
>
> 5.) Proper Application of Power. - When explaining power and >how to
apply it, I have started to use a term that I believe our own >Gordy has
coined, and that is "An accelerated acceleration to a >stop", I have never
heard it explained better. For this all >important step I also use hands
on guidance with permission. There >are many analogies for this also, such
as driving in low gear then >shifting to second and finally high.
> 6.) Abrupt Stop - When trying to explain the importance of the >stop, I
allude to the elite distance caster's (Steve Rajeff) words, >when he was
asked: What do the best casters do that other's fail to >do? And he
replied; "They stop the rod." As to demonstrating this, I >again like to,
with permission of course, use hands on. It is a >wonderful way to have
the student actually feel the abruptness of >the required stop. Here again
there are many visual aids we can >apply, throwing water at a wall off of
a paint brush, slinging an >apple from a dowel rod and so on.
> Since I have a plethora of beginners here in the Catskills, I >have
printed out little cards (laminated) with the essentials listed >and hand
them out at the end of a one day lesson. I tell them to put >them in their
wallet or purse and refer to them if necessary when >they are practicing,
and then I always add; "You do plan to >practice, don't you?"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Links:
------
[1] mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[2] mailto:paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[3] mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx