RE: long casting

Jerry....

Since there is some controversy over the use of the stripping basket.......and most consider it for use in actual fishing conditions, I would NOT use one for the exam.

Line control is something we have not gone into in depth. My brief answer is that Joan's depiction of it in her book, JOAN WULFF'S FLY CASTING TECHNIQUES, pp 117 - 120 can't be topped. The first loop is the longest, "for the "river". Each successive loop is smaller than the one before. With practice, the release of line sort of "clicks out" one loop at a time in rapid succession starting with the smallest (last one coiled) . I have used this method in preference to the stripping basket on Alaskan and European salmon rivers.......and on trout streams. At first, it seems cumbersome and an annoying addition.....then, after doing it for hundreds of presentations, you don't even think about it.....you just semi-consciously do it.

Sometimes, on windy days in my flats skiff, I tuck the coils into my belt. One tackle company offers a plastic belt hook to be used for that purpose.

For shorter casts, as on most trout waters, I use a method taught me by my father, consisting of using the line hand to palm small figure-of-eight coils of line.....then releasing them on the shoot........no basket....and no loops of line in the water.

When striped bass fishing on clean sand bars in Peconic Bay, I sometimes toss my loops of line behind my line hand onto the sand. Works for that venue.

Gordy

From: jerry puckett <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: long casting
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:08:52 -0800 (PST)

Troy and Gordy:

I have never used a stripping basket and shall give it a go. Question, since I am at work, I am not able to quote page numbers but both Jason Borger and Joan Wulff described a line hand use to form coils for line control. Does this line hand use for controled coils form a basket function and would a Masters be expected to know and demonstrate use of the line hand to control line during casting and fishing? Would the use of a basket be a Masters concern?   Thanks Jerry

Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx> wrote:

Troy...

Yes....selection of line does include consideration of the ambient temperatures.

I'm sure many a distance champion caster has used a stripping basket while fishing when the circumstance dictates its use.......but not otherwise. (I was referring to tournament set-ups.)

I use one when surf fishing so that the line doesn't get washed all over the place by the waves. In many cases, getting tangled in surf driven sea weed, etc......or getting tangled in the rocks. When trying for distance in this situation, I have found that turning the basket toward my line hand side helps....especially if it's low to my hip. If I'm in a situation demanding a 2 handed rapid strip, then I keep it in front of me.

I've never been able to appreciate any difference in the shoot with line behind me. One reason I don't do it, is my experience making distance casts to fish from the deck of my skiff. The farther the pile of line is from directly beneath my stripper guide (or the, "guide" made by the thumb and forefinger of my line hand) during the shoot, the more likely a line tangle. With distance casting on grass, the pile of line in front of me ends up being directly beneath my stripper guide as I make my presentation cast.

Theoretically, the difference between a 90 degree angle and a 40 degree angle between the line and the rod would seem to creat more friction......but in actual casting, I couldn't see any difference in the distance achieved.

                                                                            Gordy

From: "Miller, Troy" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: long casting
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:56:41 -0600

Thanks Gordy ?

Couple of comments, now that I?ve slept on it a little. I should have put a qualifier in there about the selection of line. Obviously my statement about a stiff core line is pertinent only when you?re in a warm to hot atmosphere. If you?re casting for distance in the Alaskan winterscape (been there, done that plenty), the LAST thing you want is a hard, stiff line. Then I want my peach 444?

I?ve gotten so used to casting from a stripping basket (only when necessary, of course), that I don?t feel awkward at all like I did when I first started using one. I?d never use one in the gymnasium, but in real world fishing, the stripping basket is often one of my most important accessories. I do a lot of pond prowling for bass, and also fishing the saltgrass flats for reds, and moving around with 80 feet of cast immediately available (and not tangling on all the vegitation you?re crashing through) is a huge benefit. I also love to do the night fishing for big browns and rainbows on the White and Norfork, and this allows me to keep control of my stripped line and not have it all strung out downstream when making ready for the next cast. Love my stripping basket! Question -- if the pro tourney guys had to cast off of a river or in a field of knee deep grass, might that incline some of them to adopt the basket? Don?t know?

So you step BACK from your coils? Hmmm. I?ve always stepped forward of them. My logic tells me that if the line is behind me slightly, that it?s not having to make such a complete change in direction as I shoot it. If it?s coming from in front of me, then it has to come back to my line hand and then forward again to the stripper. Doesn?t that 180 degree change in angle introduce additional friction?

Regards -- TAM

-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 8:29 AM
To: Miller, Troy; flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx; rtab@xxxxxxx; CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx; creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; dwright@xxxxxxxxxxxx; daver@xxxxxxxxxx; dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx; captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx; ephemera@xxxxxxx; brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx; barefootj@xxxxxxx; bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx; ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx; mkreider1@xxxxxxx; martyt@xxxxxxxxxx; niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx; pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; bigfly@xxxxxxxxx; whorwood@xxxxxxxxx; flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; sheila@xxxxxxxxxx; scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx; cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx; caddis@xxxxxxx; Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx; cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx; crazycharlie@xxxxxxx; croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx; DermSox@xxxxxxx; gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx; gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx; hillshead@xxxxxxx; iverson@xxxxxxxxx; jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx; jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx; kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx; plami@xxxxxxxxxxx; ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx; simbirsw@xxxxxxx; bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx; hillcathy@xxxxxxx; dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx; donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx; douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx; erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx; flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx; gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx; hlhpc@xxxxxxx; jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx; harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx; skifishvail@xxxxxxxx; jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx; trallag@xxxxxxx; captflyrod@xxxxxxx; mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; fraudflies@xxxxxxx; shane@xxxxxxxxx; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: long casting

ol Al...and Troy.

Good suggestions. One could go into pages on choice of rod and line design, etc.....no end to it.

I find that the stripping basket interfers with my best form. Perhaps that's why the pro level tournament casters don't use one.

For us mere mortals, I find that a beach towel placed on the ground upon which the line is coiled works just great for demonstration distance casts......especially if the grass is gnarley. (Good tip for those of you who are going to be taking your MCI exams.)

I find that coiling the line on the towel at the START mark also reminds me to step back a step before making my distance cast. That makes it a lot less likely that I'll be standing on a coil of line as I make my cast. (Occasionally a candidate ruins a distance cast that way on an exam.)

                                                                       Gordy

From: "Miller, Troy" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jerry Puckett" <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>, "Ron Mc Quary" <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>, "Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>, "Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>, "Dennis Burns" <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Marshall Lasswell" <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>, "Rusty dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>, "gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>, "keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>, "Steve Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "james Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "James Russell" <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>, "Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>, "Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>, "dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>, "Clay Roberts" <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>, "Stacy Trimble" <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Steve Barlow" <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "john Deardorff" <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "david Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>, "Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: long casting
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:37:16 -0600

Lots of good answers so far. The only one that I have any difference of opinion on is whether we need to incline our forward line path for maximum distance. That the 180 rule will require that our backcast will be slightly downhill, and I don?t care for that unless I?m up on a platform casting.

I?ll add ?

DOUBLE HAUL!! (what else would you expect the hauloholic to say??) J

Use a stiffer rod.

Use a flyline with a stiffer core and a harder finish.

Use a shortish leader with a long butt and aggressive taper.

Use a smallish yarn fly. Don?t go without one. The yarn will act as a stabilizer, improving the smoothness and shape of the loop. Too much yarn will act like a parachute on a drag racer.

Carry as much line in the air as you can COMFORTABLY, and not a bit more. When you make your final shoot, the stroke needs to be with your absolute BEST form ? which will be impossible if you?re carrying more than you?re capable.

(I can?t believe I haven?t heard this yet!!) CLEAN YOUR FLYLINE!!

Drop a line weight (or even two for heavier line weights).

Go to Denver (preferably an indoor arena).

Like Gordy said, finish after the stop with the rod pointed down the bottom leg of your loop. This will reduce friction and maximize your shoot.

Use a stripping basket if you?re casting outdoors (wind, grass and water like to foul/add friction to the line that you?re trying to shoot).

Once you?ve carefully laid your line in coils on the floor, DON?T move your feet while casting. If you like an open stance, then stand in that stance while you?re arranging your coils beside your feet. If you still have problems shuffling your feet, then take a giant step forward after coiling your line and before starting to cast. This will usually prevent you from stepping on your line as you try to shoot.

Don?t forget about the backcast delivery for distance casting if the wind is from your rod side. I can cast MUCH further making a backcast presentation (more accurately, as well) than I can trying to cant the rod to the downwind side or make a cross body cast. Sidearm casters (Lefty-style) generally have inadequate power for distance casting when they have to make the stroke on their off-side. If you haven?t seen Sedotti?s Sayonara Sling, you need to pay heed.

I?ll probably think of five more after sending this, but that?s what comes to mind at the moment.

Regards -- TAM

-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Crise [mailto:flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 2:38 PM
To: Rod Henderson; Jerry Puckett; Ron Mc Quary; Wes Hodgson; Gary Eaton; Travis Burt; Sonny Hinojosa; Dennis Burns; Marshall Lasswell; jeff jackson; Rusty dunn; John Till; Dale Connally; gordon Hill; keith Richard; Steve Hollensed; Ron Allen Thomas; Matt Wilhem; LC Clower; Ken Cole; james Parker; James Russell; Harry Boyd; Gary Wood; Don DeRidder; dave Speer; Clay Roberts; cindy Alexander; Stacy Trimble; Steve Barlow; john Deardorff; david Bradley; Miller, Troy; Harvey Harris; ol Al
Subject: FW: long casting

from Gordy

Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor

SOC VP of Education

Hawk Ridge Flycasting School

2508 A County Road 1011

Glen Rose, TX 76043

254-897-2045

geocities.com/rrdoctor

flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx

Hi, ol Al.......

I'd add these:

1.) BEND your rod.

2.) Come to a crisp stop.

3.) Raise your arm and aim the rod tip at the target on the followthrough.

                                                                Gordy



From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry Puckett" <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Mc Quary" <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>,"Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>,"Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis Burns" <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell" <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"Steve Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"james Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"James Russell" <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay Roberts" <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble" <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow" <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"john Deardorff" <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"david Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"Troy Miller" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: FW: long casting
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:11:29 -0600

From Dave

I like this because it is short and right on.

I want to know:

What you do to make longer cast?

There are many variables here. In no specific order.

1. Longer Casting stroke.

2. Used a line with a longer belly

3. Used more body with a wider stance and stepping into it a bit.

4. Increase Line Speed

5. Shoot line both forward and back cast.

6. Tighten up your loops.

7. Drifting

8. Turn wrist after the stop putting guides onto side of rod to keep line slap to minimum

What are the mechanics that make the long cast work?

1. Long Cast Long= Long Stroke/Pause

2. Loading the rod deeper (hauls and dble hauls included) creates more energy. Line Speed

3. Shooting line allows more line to be airborne without overloading the rod or passing the "hinge"

What can you tell us that will help us or your student make longer cast?

1. SLP SLP SLP

2. Change trajectory to a slightly uphill angle on forward cast.

3. Don't be affraid to shoot line on the back cast and forward cast.

4. Try to lay the rod back a bit more with drifting, reach back to get the longest stroke possible while maintaining SLP

5. If the back cast is bad, Don't try to make the cast!

Allen Crise <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Howdy gang;

Here are some good Reponses to making a longer cast

from Rod

What do you do to make a longer cast? This is the mental list I go through that has helped me. I'm teaching my mom and dad to cast and it seems to be improving theirs as well. (so far)

1) Sharpen my stops on the backcast

2) Wait longer to allow the rod to load up (better drift)

3) Don't overpower the stroke into the second stop.

4) Sharpen my stop on the forward cast

I got one from Dave that was really good Dave if you can resend it I must have dropped in some file that I do not use ... Bummer is was right on. I wanted to make a copy of it.

ol Al

Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor

SOC VP of Education

Hawk Ridge Flycasting School

2508 A County Road 1011

Glen Rose, TX 76043

254-897-2045

geocities.com/rrdoctor

flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx

Yahoo! Mail
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.