Gary...
I do a lot of fishing for those small tarpon....particularly in the winter. I've found the same thing.
Gordy
From: gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: long casting
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 04:38:47 -0800
Gordy,
Concerning that "figure of eight" palming / line retrieve technique...
My father taught me that too, years ago, and I quickly discarded the technique
as something only a trout angler would employ.
This past summer, while fishing for baby tarpon, we were having quite a
frustrating day. The little buggers were everywhere, but they just would not
take our flies. However, on numerous occasions, we had violent strikes as we
started to lift the fly for the backcast. Funny, but frustrating. Then, as I
was reeling in to change flies, I had another take. It dawned on me that they
wanted a smooth continuous retrieve! How do you do that? Well, that
figure of
eight retrieve is as slow and smooth as you can get... and it was the ticket!
I've been using it since, and the little tarpon just love it!
Gary Meyer
>
>
> Jerry.... Since there is some controversy over the use of the
>stripping basket.......and most consider it for use in actual
>fishing
>conditions, I would NOT use one for the exam. Line control is
>something we have not gone into in depth. My brief answer is that
>Joan's depiction of it in her book, JOAN WULFF'S FLY CASTING
>TECHNIQUES, pp 117 - 120 can't be topped. The first loop is the
>longest, "for the "river". Each successive loop is smaller than the
>one before. With practice, the release of line sort of "clicks out"
>one loop at a time in rapid succession starting with the smallest
>(last one coiled) . I have used this method in preference to the
>stripping basket on Alaskan and European salmon rivers.......and on
>trout streams. At first, it seems cumbersome and an annoying
>addition.....then, after doing it for hundreds of presentations, you
>don't even think about it.....you just semi-consciously do it.
>Sometimes, on windy days in my flats skiff, I tuck the coils into my
>belt. One tackle company offers a plastic belt hook to be used for
>that purpose. For shorter casts, as on most trout waters, I use a
>method taught me by my father, consisting of using the line hand to
>palm small figure-of-eight coils of line.....then releasing them on
>the shoot........no basket....and no loops of line in the water.
>When striped bass fishing on clean sand bars in Peconic Bay, I
>sometimes toss my loops of line behind my line hand onto the sand.
>Works for that venue.
> Gordy
>
>-------------------------
>From: /jerry puckett <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>/
>To: /Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
>Subject: /RE: long casting/
>Date: /Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:08:52 -0800 (PST)/
>
>Troy and Gordy: I have never used a stripping basket and shall
>give
>it a go. Question, since I am at work, I am not able to quote page
>numbers but both Jason Borger and Joan Wulff described a line hand
>use to form coils for line control. Does this line hand use for
>controled coils form a basket function and would a Masters be
>expected to know and demonstrate use of the line hand to control
>line during casting and fishing? Would the use of a basket be a
>Masters concern? Thanks Jerry
>
>/GORDON HILL <HILLSHEAD@xxxxxxx>/ wrote: Troy...
>Yes....selection of line does include consideration of the ambient
>temperatures. I'm sure many a distance champion caster has used a
>stripping basket while fishing when the circumstance dictates its
>use.......but not otherwise. (I was referring to tournament
>set-ups.)
>I use one when surf fishing so that the line doesn't get washed all
>over the place by the waves. In many cases, getting tangled in surf
>driven sea weed, etc......or getting tangled in the rocks. When
>trying for distance in this situation, I have found that turning the
>basket toward my line hand side helps....especially if it's low to
>my
>hip. If I'm in a situation demanding a 2 handed rapid strip, then I
>keep it in front of me. I've never been able to appreciate any
>difference in the shoot with line behind me. One reason I don't do
>it, is my experience making distance casts to fish from the deck of
>my skiff. The farther the pile of line is from directly beneath my
>stripper guide (or the, "guide" made by the thumb and forefinger of
>my line hand) during the shoot, the more likely a line tangle. With
>distance casting on grass, the pile of line in front of me ends up
>being directly beneath my stripper guide as I make my presentation
>cast. Theoretically, the difference between a 90 degree angle and a
>40 degree angle between the line and the rod would seem to creat
>more
>friction......but in actual casting, I couldn't see any difference
>in
>the distance achieved.
> Gordy
>
>-------------------------
>From: /"Miller, Troy" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
>To: /"Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
>Subject: /RE: long casting/
>Date: /Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:56:41 -0600/
>
>Thanks Gordy ? Couple of comments, now that I?ve slept on it a
>little. I should have put a qualifier in there about the selection
>of line. Obviously my statement about a stiff core line is
>pertinent
>only when you?re in a warm to hot atmosphere. If you?re casting for
>distance in the Alaskan winterscape (been there, done that plenty),
>the LAST thing you want is a hard, stiff line. Then I want my peach
>444? I?ve gotten so used to casting from a stripping basket (only
>when necessary, of course), that I don?t feel awkward at all like I
>did when I first started using one. I?d never use one in the
>gymnasium, but in real world fishing, the stripping basket is often
>one of my most important accessories. I do a lot of pond prowling
>for bass, and also fishing the saltgrass flats for reds, and moving
>around with 80 feet of cast immediately available (and not tangling
>on all the vegitation you?re crashing through) is a huge benefit. I
>also love to do the night fishing for big browns and rainbows on the
>White and Norfork, and this allows me to keep control of my stripped
>line and not have it all strung out downstream when making ready for
>the next cast. Love my stripping basket! Question -- if the pro
>tourney guys had to cast off of a river or in a field of knee deep
>grass, might that incline some of them to adopt the basket? Don?t
>know? So you step BACK from your coils? Hmmm. I?ve always
>stepped
>forward of them. My logic tells me that if the line is behind me
>slightly, that it?s not having to make such a complete change in
>direction as I shoot it. If it?s coming from in front of me, then
>it
>has to come back to my line hand and then forward again to the
>stripper. Doesn?t that 180 degree change in angle introduce
>additional friction? Regards -- TAM -----Original Message-----
>FROM: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx] SENT: Tuesday, February
>14, 2006 8:29 AM
>TO: Miller, Troy; flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx;
>rtab@xxxxxxx; CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx; creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
>dwright@xxxxxxxxxxxx; daver@xxxxxxxxxx; dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx;
>captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx;
>ephemera@xxxxxxx; brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx; barefootj@xxxxxxx;
>bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx;
>ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
>captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx; mkreider1@xxxxxxx;
>martyt@xxxxxxxxxx; niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx; pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
>bigfly@xxxxxxxxx; whorwood@xxxxxxxxx; flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
>sheila@xxxxxxxxxx; scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx; cooper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
>tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx
>CC: mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx; caddis@xxxxxxx; Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx;
>cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx; crazycharlie@xxxxxxx;
>croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx; DermSox@xxxxxxx;
>gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx; gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx; hillshead@xxxxxxx;
>iverson@xxxxxxxxx; jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx; jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx;
>kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx;
>plami@xxxxxxxxxxx; ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
>kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx; simbirsw@xxxxxxx; bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx;
>hillcathy@xxxxxxx; dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx; donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx;
>douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx; erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx;
>flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx; gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx; hlhpc@xxxxxxx;
>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; jhara.carter@xxxxxxxxxxx;
>harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx; skifishvail@xxxxxxxx;
>jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx; trallag@xxxxxxx; captflyrod@xxxxxxx;
>mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
>fraudflies@xxxxxxx; shane@xxxxxxxxx; snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
>SUBJECT: RE: long casting ol Al...and Troy. Good suggestions.
>One
>could go into pages on choice of rod and line design, etc.....no end
>to it. I find that the stripping basket interfers with my best form.
>Perhaps that's why the pro level tournament casters don't use one.
>For us mere mortals, I find that a beach towel placed on the ground
>upon which the line is coiled works just great for demonstration
>distance casts......especially if the grass is gnarley. (Good tip
>for those of you who are going to be taking your MCI exams.) I find
>that coiling the line on the towel at the START mark also reminds me
>to step back a step before making my distance cast. That makes it a
>lot less likely that I'll be standing on a coil of line as I make my
>cast. (Occasionally a candidate ruins a distance cast that way on an
>exam.)
> Gordy -------------------------
>From: /"Miller, Troy" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
>To: /"Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>, "Rod Henderson"
><roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jerry Puckett"
><jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>, "Ron Mc Quary"
><codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>, "Gary
>Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>, "Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Sonny
>Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>, "Dennis Burns"
><Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Marshall Lasswell"
><mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,
>"Rusty dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "John Till"
><till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,
>"gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>, "keith Richard"
><KRichard@xxxxxxx>, "Steve Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,
>"Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Matt Wilhem"
><educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
>"Ken
>Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "james Parker"
><james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "James Russell"
><jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>, "Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Gary
>Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>, "Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,
>"dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>, "Clay Roberts"
><CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "cindy Alexander"
><calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>, "Stacy Trimble" <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,
>"Steve Barlow" <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "john Deardorff"
><jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "david Bradley"
><dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>, "Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>/
>Subject: /RE: long casting/
>Date: /Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:37:16 -0600/ Lots of good answers so far.
>The only one that I have any difference of opinion on is whether we
>need to incline our forward line path for maximum distance. That
>the
>180 rule will require that our backcast will be slightly downhill,
>and I don?t care for that unless I?m up on a platform casting.
>I?ll
>add ? * DOUBLE HAUL!! (what else would you expect the hauloholic
>to say??) J
>
> * Use a stiffer rod.
>
> * Use a flyline with a stiffer core and a harder finish.
>
> * Use a shortish leader with a long butt and aggressive taper.
>
> * Use a smallish yarn fly. Don?t go without one. The yarn will
>act
>as a stabilizer, improving the smoothness and shape of the loop.
>Too
>much yarn will act like a parachute on a drag racer.
>
> * Carry as much line in the air as you can COMFORTABLY, and not a
>bit more. When you make your final shoot, the stroke needs to be
>with your absolute BEST form ? which will be impossible if you?re
>carrying more than you?re capable.
>
> * (I can?t believe I haven?t heard this yet!!) CLEAN YOUR
>FLYLINE!!
>
> * Drop a line weight (or even two for heavier line weights).
>
> * Go to Denver (preferably an indoor arena).
>
> * Like Gordy said, finish after the stop with the rod pointed down
>the bottom leg of your loop. This will reduce friction and maximize
>your shoot.
>
> * Use a stripping basket if you?re casting outdoors (wind, grass
>and
>water like to foul/add friction to the line that you?re trying to
>shoot).
>
> * Once you?ve carefully laid your line in coils on the floor,
>DON?T
>move your feet while casting. If you like an open stance, then
>stand
>in that stance while you?re arranging your coils beside your feet.
>If you still have problems shuffling your feet, then take a giant
>step forward after coiling your line and before starting to cast.
>This will usually prevent you from stepping on your line as you try
>to shoot.
>
> * Don?t forget about the backcast delivery for distance casting if
>the wind is from your rod side. I can cast MUCH further making a
>backcast presentation (more accurately, as well) than I can trying
>to
>cant the rod to the downwind side or make a cross body cast.
>Sidearm
>casters (Lefty-style) generally have inadequate power for distance
>casting when they have to make the stroke on their off-side. If you
>haven?t seen Sedotti?s Sayonara Sling, you need to pay heed.
>
> I?ll probably think of five more after sending this, but that?s
>what
>comes to mind at the moment. Regards -- TAM -----Original
>Message-----
>FROM: Allen Crise [mailto:flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx] SENT: Monday, February
>13, 2006 2:38 PM
>TO: Rod Henderson; Jerry Puckett; Ron Mc Quary; Wes Hodgson; Gary
>Eaton; Travis Burt; Sonny Hinojosa; Dennis Burns; Marshall Lasswell;
>jeff jackson; Rusty dunn; John Till; Dale Connally; gordon Hill;
>keith Richard; Steve Hollensed; Ron Allen Thomas; Matt Wilhem; LC
>Clower; Ken Cole; james Parker; James Russell; Harry Boyd; Gary
>Wood;
>Don DeRidder; dave Speer; Clay Roberts; cindy Alexander; Stacy
>Trimble; Steve Barlow; john Deardorff; david Bradley; Miller, Troy;
>Harvey Harris; ol Al
>SUBJECT: FW: long casting FROM GORDY ALLEN CRISE FFF MASTER
>CASTING INSTRUCTOR SOC VP OF EDUCATION HAWK RIDGE FLYCASTING
>SCHOOL
> 2508 A COUNTY ROAD 1011 GLEN ROSE, TX 76043 254-897-2045
>GEOCITIES.COM/RRDOCTOR FLYSOUP@xxxxxxxxxx Hi, ol Al....... I'd
>add
>these: 1.) BEND your rod. 2.) Come to a crisp stop. 3.) Raise your
>arm and aim the rod tip at the target on the followthrough.
> Gordy
>
>-------------------------
>From: /"Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>/
>To: /"Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry Puckett"
><jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Mc Quary"
><codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>,"Gary
>Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>,"Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny
>Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis Burns"
><Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell"
><mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson"
><tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"John
>Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dale Connally"
><Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"keith
>Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"Steve Hollensed"
><stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas"
><koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC
>Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken Cole"
><ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"james Parker"
><james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"James Russell"
><jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary
>Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder"
><ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"dave
>Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay Roberts"
><CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy Alexander"
><calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble"
><stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow"
><steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"john Deardorff"
><jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"david Bradley"
><dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"Troy Miller"
><Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"ol
>Al"
><flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>/
>Subject: /FW: long casting/
>Date: /Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:11:29 -0600/ FROM DAVE I LIKE THIS
>BECAUSE IT IS SHORT AND RIGHT ON. I WANT TO KNOW: WHAT YOU DO
>TO MAKE LONGER CAST? THERE ARE MANY VARIABLES HERE. IN NO SPECIFIC
>ORDER. 1. LONGER CASTING STROKE. 2. USED A LINE WITH A LONGER
>BELLY
> 3. USED MORE BODY WITH A WIDER STANCE AND STEPPING INTO IT A BIT.
>4. INCREASE LINE SPEED 5. SHOOT LINE BOTH FORWARD AND BACK CAST.
>6.
>TIGHTEN UP YOUR LOOPS. 7. DRIFTING 8. TURN WRIST AFTER THE STOP
>PUTTING GUIDES ONTO SIDE OF ROD TO KEEP LINE SLAP TO MINIMUM
>WHAT
>ARE THE MECHANICS THAT MAKE THE LONG CAST WORK? 1. LONG CAST LONG=
>LONG STROKE/PAUSE 2. LOADING THE ROD DEEPER (HAULS AND DBLE HAULS
>INCLUDED) CREATES MORE ENERGY. LINE SPEED 3. SHOOTING LINE ALLOWS
>MORE LINE TO BE AIRBORNE WITHOUT OVERLOADING THE ROD OR PASSING THE
>\\"HINGE\\" WHAT CAN YOU TELL US THAT WILL HELP US OR YOUR
>STUDENT MAKE LONGER CAST? 1. SLP SLP SLP 2. CHANGE TRAJECTORY TO A
>SLIGHTLY UPHILL ANGLE ON FORWARD CAST. 3. DON'T BE AFFRAID TO SHOOT
>LINE ON THE BACK CAST AND FORWARD CAST. 4. TRY TO LAY THE ROD BACK
>A
>BIT MORE WITH DRIFTING, REACH BACK TO GET THE LONGEST STROKE
>POSSIBLE
>WHILE MAINTAINING SLP 5. IF THE BACK CAST IS BAD, DON'T TRY TO MAKE
>THE CAST! /ALLEN CRISE <FLYSOUP@xxxxxxxxxx>/ wrote: HOWDY
>GANG; HERE ARE SOME GOOD REPONSES TO MAKING A LONGER CAST FROM
>ROD WHAT DO YOU DO TO MAKE A LONGER CAST? THIS IS THE MENTAL LIST
>I GO THROUGH THAT HAS HELPED ME. I'M TEACHING MY MOM AND DAD TO
>CAST
>AND IT SEEMS TO BE IMPROVING THEIRS AS WELL. (SO FAR) 1) SHARPEN
>MY STOPS ON THE BACKCAST 2) WAIT LONGER TO ALLOW THE ROD TO LOAD UP
>(BETTER DRIFT) 3) DON'T OVERPOWER THE STROKE INTO THE SECOND STOP.
>4) SHARPEN MY STOP ON THE FORWARD CAST I GOT ONE FROM DAVE THAT
>WAS REALLY GOOD DAVE IF YOU CAN RESEND IT I MUST HAVE DROPPED IN
>SOME
>FILE THAT I DO NOT USE ... BUMMER IS WAS RIGHT ON. I WANTED TO MAKE
>A
>COPY OF IT. OL AL ALLEN CRISE FFF MASTER CASTING
>INSTRUCTOR SOC VP OF EDUCATION HAWK RIDGE FLYCASTING SCHOOL 2508
>A
>COUNTY ROAD 1011 GLEN ROSE, TX 76043 254-897-2045
>GEOCITIES.COM/RRDOCTOR FLYSOUP@xxxxxxxxxx
>-------------------------
>Yahoo! Mail
>Use Photomail[1] to share photos without annoying attachments.
>Links:
>------
>[1]
>http://pa.yahoo.com/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=38867/*http:/photomail.mail.yahoo.com
>