Jeff....
Very good teaching point.
Depends on whether you are applying the so-called "180 degree rule" to the trajectory or line plane of each cast, forward and back, or to the positiion of the line at the completion of the unrolling loop at the end of each cast.
Of course, when carrying a lot of line, we aim it higher realizing that it will fall to an approximately horizontal plane by the time the loop has unfurled and we're ready to start the next stroke.
If you apply it to the latter, then the "rule" is NOT broken !
(This is one of the problems with making rules that seem written in stone on the mount. The uninitiated do not appreciate the details of interpreting them.)
Gordy
From: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: your mail
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:27:25 -0600
Gordy,
Is the 180 degree rule really being broken? Or is this just a change of
trajectory from the front to back cast. Creating 180 degrees say from the
front to back cast then the line drops to a certain level on the back cast and
the next forward cast has a slight upward trajectory but being in line with
where the line came from after the drop of the previous cast. (similar to what
Joan Wulff writes about in fly Casting Techniques page 121).
Jeff Wagner
Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
Redington Pro Staff
Quoting Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>:
>
>
> Paul...
>
> Some tournament distance casters have achieved greater success
>when
>they very slightly abort the so-called, "180 degree rule" in making
>the line plane (trajectory) a bit higher for both the forward and
>back casts. I think that is to allow for a small drop in the great
>amount of line carried before starting the next stroke, however.
>
> In calling attention to the "rising line syndrome" where the line
>appears to climb against gravity, I have come across to scenarios
>where I KNOW it happens. One is when casting into an updraft as
>with
>a head wind and the caster casting from a steep bank. The other is
>the experience I'm not proud to relate.......casting during the
>approach of a thunderstorm here in the Keys when static electricity
>has occasionally resulted the the phenomenon of the line hovering
>mysteriously above the water despite no wind.
>
> As to the "projectile", I recall a practical joke made by one of
>our anglers who cut his buddy's fly line just a few feet behind the
>head. We really couldn't tell how fast it fell, because it shot out
>to kingdom come !
>
>
> Gordy
>
>-------------------------
> From: _"Paul Arden" _
>Reply-To: _"Paul Arden" _
>To: _"Gordon Hill" _
>Subject: _Re: your mail_
>Date: _Wed, 31 Aug 2005 04:16:49 +0100_
>Hi Gordy,
>that the force *exists* you can quite easily prove by dropping a
>coiled line from the
>same height as a rod tip and timing the decent and then making the
>same calculation after RSP
>with a horizontally cast top leg. If the cast line was simply a
>projectile then the two
>lines would land at the same time.
>Whether the force is sufficient to lift the loop I don't know.
>Interesting stuff however
>and explains why a loop stays fairly level in the air while its
>unrolling. It also means that for distance with a
>full flyline, under no-wind conditions, that the best loop
>trajectory
>is horizontal (I think).
>Cheers,
>Paul
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Hill"
>To: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;
>Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;
>;
>; ;
>Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:35 AM
>Subject: Re: your mail
>
>>Paul....
>>
>>Great observation !....This "lift effect" can occur if the loop
>>speed is sufficient and can have the appearance of briefly
>>counteracting gravity to a limited extent.
>>
>>I have seen some videos and gone over Noel Perkins' formulae. Two
>>things prevailed.....first, I couldn't follow all of his calculus
>>equations to satisfy myself that this is a real event, and,
>>second......I couldn't ever be certain that this was, indeed, what
>>was happening. Whether this has to do with the action of the line
>>"skin" molecular effect, or whether it had to do with more
>>aerodynamics than I can understand........and I also couldn't be
>>certain that it wasn't an optical illusion. That it APPEARS to be
>>the case, I don't deny.
>>
>>
>>Gordy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>From: "Paul Arden" Reply-To: "Paul Arden" To: "Gordon Hill"
>>Subject: Re: your mail
>>Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:58:53 +0100
>>Hi Gordy,
>>quick one on the gravity/projectiles. The reason a cast flyline
>>takes longer
>>to fall to the ground than
>>one suspended and released is because there is a force generated
>>inside the
>>loop keeping it there.
>>In fact it's quite possible for a loop to lift slightly during its
>>path and
>>I have a few videos where
>>this appears to happen.
>>Noel Perkins has written some equations which no one else
>>understands, if
>>you want the PDF
>>links I can dig them out.
>>Cheers,
>>Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Hill" To: ; ; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ; Cc: ; ; ;
>>; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ; ;
>>; ;
>>; ;
>>; ; Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 4:44 PM
>>Subject: Re: your mail
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Hi, Jim.....
>> >
>> >Note my answers in bold caps inserted in your answer text, below.
>> >
>> > Gordy
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >From: t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx
>> >To: "Gordon Hill" >Subject: Re: your mail
>> >Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:29:07 +0000
>> >Hi Gordy,
>> >
>> >Somewhat late but I will give your questions a try as some are
>>not
>> >familiar to
>> >me.
>> >Loop begins to fall when it has unrolled as the energy has been
>> >dissipated
>> >at this point.
>> >
>> >THAT IS THE PREVAILING CONVENTIONAL WISDOM, JIM.....HOWEVER,
>>GRAVITY >IS
>> >ALWAYS WORKING, AND THE TRUE ANSWER IS THAT THE LINE/LOOP BEGINS
>>TO >FALL
>> >VERY SLIGHTLY AS SOON AS THE LOOP IS FORMED. THIS CAN BE SEEN
>>WITH >TIME
>> >LAPSE VIDEO. THERE IS A MARKED INCREASE IN FALLING ONCE THE LOOP
>> >HAS
>> >UNFURLED, TO BE SURE. IN REAL TIME, THIS IS HARD TO SEE....BUT
>>YOU >CAN
>> >GET THE IDEA BY GOING OUT AND MAKING A LONG CAST AND
>>CONCENTRATING >ON THE
>> >FALL OF THE LINE WHILE THE LOOP IS STILL UNFURLING EVEN WHEN YOU
>> >GAIN HIGH
>> >LOOP SPEED.
>> >
>> >2. The rod hand moves the rod and stops the rod.
>> >
>> >YES. ANOTHER WAY TO PUT IT IS THAT THE ROD HAND EXECUTES THE
>> >MECHANICS OF
>> >THE CAST.
>> >
>> >
>> >3. Line hand keeps the line taut or with tension, hauls and of
>> >course
>> >controls
>> >the speed and length of the haul, strips, controls the rate of
>>the >strip,
>> >the
>> >speed of the strip and the distance of the strip. The line hand
>> >controls
>> >the
>> >line (as we talked earlier it keeps the line from tangling on the
>> >butt and
>> >the
>> >handle), keeps control of the line on shooting line to maintain
>> >tension or
>> >to
>> >be ready to strip immediately on the presentation. Obviously if
>>the >line
>> >does
>> >slip out of your hand the line hand is the quick retriever at the
>> >first
>> >eye,
>> >
>> >YES. THE LINE HAND ALSO CONTROLS SLACK, AND IS USED FOR
>> >STRIP-STRIKES.
>> >
>> >
>> >4.The loop begins to form when the tip stops or the rod stop
>> >position.
>> >
>> >I LOOK AT IT THAT THE LOOP BEGINS TO FORM AT THE ROD STRAIGHT
>> >POSITION
>> >(RSP). THIS IS THE POINT AT WHICH THE LINE OVERTAKES THE ROD TIP.
>> >
>> >
>> >5. Guides keep the line from wrapping around the rod (for those
>>who >have
>> >never
>> >missed an eye when lining the rod-do it on purpose and try some
>> >casts).
>> >When
>> >fighting a fish the guides provide tension on the line and I
>>suspect
>> >contribute to lifting power of the rod as they act somewhat as a
>> >pulley.
>> >
>> >TRUE.....UNLESS YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE WORD, "PULLEY" AS USED IN
>>THE >SENSE
>> >OF A BLOCK-AND-TACKLE. THERE IS NO MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE....SO THE
>> >GUIDES
>> >ACT IN CONTROLLING LINE PATH WITH RESPECT TO THE ROD. ONE CAN
>>MAKE >SHORT
>> >CASTS WITH NO GUIDES OTHER THAN THE TIP TOP.....BUT AS SOON AS
>> >LONGER
>> >CASTS ARE TRIED WITH LINE SHOOT, THE LINE SLAPS AGAINST THE ROD
>>AND >OFTEN
>> >WRAPS AROUND THE ROD. THE RESULTANT FRICTION BETWEEN THE LINE AND
>> >THE ROD
>> >ABORTS THE SHOOT AS THE LOOP SPEED COLLAPSES.
>> >
>> >IN FIGHTING A FISH, YOU ARE CORRECT IN THAT LIFTING POWER IS MUCH
>> >REDUCED.
>> >MUCH MORE OF THE STRESS IS APPLIED TO THE TIP SECTION WHICH MAY
>> >BREAK. A
>> >MORE ACUTE ANGLE BETWEEN THE LINE AND THE TIP TOP OCCURS PLACING
>> >TREMENDOUS STRAIN ON THE TIP TOP ITSELF. WHEN I FIRST TRIED THIS,
>> >THE TIP
>> >TOP LITERALLY WAS PULLED OFF THE BLANK.
>> >
>> >
>> >6. Dual mode rod-would that be the same as (blocking for the
>>term) >as a
>> >reel
>> >that does not free spool when the fish is running?
>> >
>> >NOT EXACTLY. THE DUAL MODE FLY REEL IS ONE WHICH IS AN
>>ANTI-REVERSE >REEL
>> >WHILE THE FISH IS RUNNING. IT BECOMES A DIRECT DRIVE REEL AS SOON
>> >AS THE
>> >ANGLER GRASPS THE HANDLE AND BEGINS TO MANUALLY RETRIEVE, AT
>>WHICH >POINT
>> >THE DRAG IS NEGATED. SOME BIG GAME FLY ANGLERS CONSIDER THIS THE
>> >,"BEST
>> >OF BOTH WORLDS" FOR FIGHTING LARGE FISH.
>> >
>> >
>> >7. Bungee butt-this is a guess-a section of expandeable material
>> >tied into
>> >the
>> >butt section to give great stretch to avoid breakoffs when blue
>> >water
>> >fishing?
>> >
>> >CLOSE (BUT NO CIGAR). BUNGEE-BUTT IS, INDEED, AS SEGMENT OF
>> >STRETCHY
>> >RUBBER MATERIAL ADDED AS A SEGMENT TO A FLY LEADER TO ABSORB
>>SHOCK >WHILE
>> >FIGHTING A FISH ON A VERY LIGHT TIPPET......BUT IT'S USED MOSTLY
>>IN >TROUT
>> >FISHING AS WITH 7x AND 8x TIPPETS.......NOT BIG GAME FISHING.
>>THIS >IS
>> >DESCRIBED IN GARY BORGER'S BOOK, "PRESENTATION", AND IN JASON
>> >BORGER'S
>> >BOOK, "THE NATURE OF FLY CASTING......".
>> >
>> >8. Blow line fishing-you got me!!
>> >
>> >ALSO DESCRIBED IN BORGER'S BOOKS. THIS IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF A
>> >STRONG
>> >WIND TO "KITE" A FLY ONTO THE SURFACE OF THE WATER USING A
>>SEGMENT >OF YARN
>> >OF SIMILAR MATERIAL EASILY BLOWN BY THE WIND, TO THE LEADER. ONE
>> >CAN EVEN
>> >"DANCE" THE FLY ON THE WATER TO ATTRACT A STRIKE WHEN
>>APPROPRIATE.
>> >
>> >
>> >9. Fetch-again a guess-with the line laid out and you want to
>> >inspect the
>> >fly
>> >a soft upward movement followed by a sharp downward movement that
>> >pops the
>> >fly
>> >line and fly back to you.
>> >
>> >YOU ARE DESCRIBING A VERTICAL SNAP CAST, NOT "FETCH", (ALTHOUGH I
>> >CAN'T
>> >DENY THAT IT DOES "FETCH" THE FLY). FETCH IS THE DISTANCE THAT A
>> >WIND
>> >BLOWS UNIMPEDED BY OBSTRUCTIONS. GENERALLY SPEAKING, THE GREATER
>> >THIS
>> >DISTANCE, THE GREATER THE "FETCH" AND THE GREATER THE VELOCITY OF
>> >THAT
>> >WIND. FOR EXAMPLE, A 20 KNOT WIND BLOWING AT THE CASTER WITH
>>TREES >ABOUT,
>> >MAY ONLY BE 5 KNOTS AT THE ROD BECAUSE THE FETCH (THE DISTANCE
>> >BETWEEN THE
>> >TREES AND THE ROD), IS SHORT......WHILE THAT SAME WIND BLOWING
>>OVER >A WIDE
>> >LAKE HAS ENOUGH FETCH THAT IT'S FULL FORCE OF 20 KNOTS IS PRESENT
>>AT >THE
>> >CASTER'S ROD.
>> >
>> >
>> >10. Double nail knot-insures that loops do not give at a critical
>> >point.
>> >THAT'S TRUE OF THE DOUBLE NAIL KNOT USED TO MAKE A LOOP IN THE
>> >DISTAL END
>> >OF A FLY LINE FOR A LOOP-TO-LOOP CONNECTION.
>> >
>> >ANOTHER USE OF DOUBLE NAIL KNOTS, IS FOR A VERY STRONG CONNECTION
>> >BETWEEN
>> >SEGMENTS OF A LEADER. HERE, THE ADVANTAGE IS STRENGTH. THE
>> >DISADVANTAGE
>> >IS KNOT BULK (COMPARED WITH THAT OF A BLOOD KNOT CONNECTION).
>> >
>> > >GORDY
>> >
>> >
>> >I have a question about style that I will send separately.
>> >Jim
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > From: "Gordon Hill" > To: flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx,
>>sobbobfish@xxxxxxx, rtab@xxxxxxx,
>> >CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx, creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>>dwright@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >daver@xxxxxxxxxx, dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx, ephemera@xxxxxxx,
>>brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx,
>> >keysjake@xxxxxxx, barefootj@xxxxxxx, bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx, ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx,
>>mkreider1@xxxxxxx,
>> >martyt@xxxxxxxxxx, niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx, pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >bigfly@xxxxxxxxx, whorwood@xxxxxxxxx, flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >sheila@xxxxxxxxxx, scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx, tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >tomwhite@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > CC: mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx, caddis@xxxxxxx,
>>Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx, crazycharlie@xxxxxxx,
>> >croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>>DermSox@xxxxxxx,
>> >gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxxxxx, hillshead@xxxxxxx, iverson@xxxxxxxxx,
>> >jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx, jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx,
>> >thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >plami@xxxxxxxxxxx, ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, simbirski@xxxxxxx,
>> >bobbeanblossom@xxxxxxx, hillcathy@xxxxxxx, donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx, erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx,
>> >gregrahe@xxxxxxxxxxx, ianmuirhead@xxxxxxx, jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx, skifishvail@xxxxxxxx, jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >trallag@xxxxxxx, mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>> >paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, fraudflies@xxxxxxx, shane@xxxxxxxxx,
>> >snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
>> > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:13:43 +0000
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi, Group.
>> >
>> > It's been a while since I sent any "brain teasers".....so let's
>> >see how
>> >you do on these questions:-
>> >
>> > 1.) You have just made a forward cast to the STOP. When does the
>> >line/loop begin to fall ?
>> >
>> > 2.) What is the primary duty of the rod hand ?
>> >
>> > 3.) Name 5 duties performed by the line hand.
>> >
>> > 4.) Your student asks you when the loop actually begins to form
>> >in
>> >relation to his casting stroke. What do you tell him ?
>> >
>> > 5.) What is the main function of the guides on a fly rod ?
>> >
>> > a.) When casting ?
>> >
>> > b.) When fighting a fish ?
>> >
>> > (#5 can be a brain twister and a half. Dennis Grant and I
>> >discussed this
>> >at the conclave, but I didn't gain a clear idea about it until I
>> >omitted
>> >stringing up through the guides and ran the line through the tip
>>top
>> >alone.)
>> >
>> > 6.) What is a "duel mode" fly reel ?
>> >
>> > 7. ) What is, "BUNGEE BUTT" ?
>> >
>> > 8.) What is meant by, "Blow line fishing" ?
>> >
>> > 9) What is, "FETCH" ?
>> >
>> > 10) Give one good use for a double nail knot.
>> >
>> > Take the plunge and give it a stab.....it's fun. Go ahead and
>>use >your
>> >books for any answer.
>> >
>> > >Gordy
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>