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Walter & Group...
[GH] Gary Davison answers Guy Manning's question:
"Quiz: Which of the 5 essentials can you break and still perform a good roll cast? A hint was given above."
Essential # 2
Slack line should be kept to an absolute minimum.
We use a good roll cast when slack is in the line, to eliminate the slack before making an overhead cast.
Gary
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[GH] William Ciarro answers the question (Note his message on roll casting and the stop, below) :
The essential that is fudged is No Slack.
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>From Jim Hund:
Dr. Gordy:
I also thank you for your effort and your results. The in-depth insight and information goes way beyond your 350+ members. The information gained by these teachers is being passed on to students world wide.
With that said, I pose a question -- what are some practice tips or aids to work on and improve late rotation?
Jim Hund
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I don't have any magic formula.
Suggestion:
1.) First: Study Bruce Richard's last message to us.
2.) Then: Try making moderate distance casts by starting the forward cast with mostly translation (Some call this, "drag", then add acceleration with rotation at slightly different points as close to the time that your back cast loop fully unfurls as possible.
3,) Finally: Repeat until you have obtained the tightest loop and easiest distance.
I did it with 2.) and 3.).
Then I found that the timing would change when carrying different amounts of line (No surprise here). After lots of practice timing by watching my back cast loop straighten, I got so I had a "feel" for that point. That made it easier.
With roll casts, I don't use "drag". Rather, I start slowly and simply increase acceleration with rotation when the butt section of my rod is about perpendicular to the ground.
Gordy
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[GH] From Lefty Kreh. (A better method to teach this than mine.):
Gordy,
I found the roll casting comments interesting. It is undoubtably the worst performing of all fishing casts with the leader and sometimes the end of the line piling together.
Two things almost immediately improve their roll cast. Have them understand you are modifying the cast because you can't make a normal backcast. Most student believe a roll cast is all different. Emphasize you make a regular forward cast. Many quickly understand this if you false cast several times explaining how their forward false cast is directed straight ahead. Then make their normal roll cast so the rod tip travels in a slight arc throwing line/leader around a curve.They understand the concept.
What really works relates to what Bruce said so well. To start the forward roll cast I take their hand and move it slowly forward emphasizing the hand travels in a straight path and DO NOT BEND THE WRIST (causes the rod tip to travel in an arc) . The first several times I release their hand about even with the body and ask them to cast. The lines sweeps around a circle and ends in a mess.
Then I move their hand slowly forward IN A STRAIGHT PATH and DON'T RELEASE THEIR HAND UNTIL IT'S IN FRONT OF THEIR BODY. Then I ask them to cast straight ahead resulting in a nice roll cast. By emphasizing don't bend the wrist and don't speed up and stop until the hand is in front of the body they almost have to direct the cast straight ahead.
For years with this simple technique in four or five minutes they are making nice roll casts.
If you want you can share this with the members.
Lefty
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[GH] Lefty,
I'll sure try that next time I teach roll casts.
Gordy
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>From William Ciarro:
Gordy,
I have a few thoughts and the need for your input as to my thinking and approach.. In relation to the word “stop’. Yes in a scientific world the word stop is incorrect. John Van Deer Hoof says “Smooth & Constant acceleration with a straight tip path to an abrupt STOP” I use this quote as the opening to each and every student. First as a sentence and then in fragments to be understood in it’s parts. When I get to the stop portion, depending on the ability of the student, I will have them squeeze the grip at the moment of the stop.
For the roll cast I have been making the student look at the size of the D loop and making it a bit larger by raising their casting arm and then making the forward stroke with the words, “Cast the Reel”. I have found that immediate improvement occurs in the distance and loop size, especially on grass. The cast the reel causes a very late transition of the rod tip. In fact it is possible to take this to the point of the tip never turning over and causing tails at best and crashes if a concave path is used. If I use the correct straight tip path similar to a standard forward cast the transition will naturally happen by the continued inertia that is generated by the stroke and because of scientific fact the inability to make an immediate stop.
My line of choice has been a Rio Clouser in a 7 weight. I think the belly of a Salmon taper might be better for the roll cast distance.
Thanks,
William
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[GH] William,
"Cast the reel" ! A novel approach.
Gordy
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From Troy Miller:
REALLY like Bruce’s thoughts on “delayed rotation”. If a caster has already optimized his power/speed through the stroke, then delaying rotation further will not help tighten the loop -- it will cause poor loop shape or low trajectory. His answer was very concise and accurate, I believe. Thanks --TAM
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From Craig Buckbee:
Gordy,
Here is a youtube link to Peter Hayes' Roll cast demo :
Craig
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[GH] Peter Hayes of from Tasmania. He's a new member of our Casting Board of Governors.
Watch this video carefully.
As you watch it, try to note both the differences and the similarities between the methods of roll cast practice you have already noted in our messages and Peter Hayes method. Compare Lefty's message with this.
1. Peter's timing of rotation. 2. Note the position of his hand in front of his body as he uses rotation and increases his power application. 3. Note his use of "heavy" line behind in his D-loop. 4. The position of his rod tip behind him just prior to his forward delivery. 5. His straight line path. 6. His way of getting his student's attention with FUN.
After doing all this, go out and practice a few roll casts again.
Gordy
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From Jim Hund. Note his attachment:
Dr. Gordy:
I asked the question earlier today about late rotation, to see what other practice tips I could pick up. Below I share what I am doing.
I consider Steve Hollensed my mentor. One thing he has hammered home to me is the importance of late rotation for tight loops in almost ALL cast. Recently, my wife bought me a spey rod. And of course I bought books and DVDs. As discussed below a picture in one of those books resonated with me on another way to think about late rotation.
Here is what I have been doing which incorporates several learning methods discussed in your last topic:
1. Years ago before I understood late, I built a standing hoop from PVC (got the idea from practice part of Lefty's recent book). This helped a lot. As I reflect, I think the hoop provided the visual aid to subconsciously promote late rotation.
2. Recently, a picture from Simon Gawesworth's book "Spey Casting" (pg. 43) brought the point home in a new and different way for me -- focus on the position of the rod during translation. This picture is attached. The picture emphasizes that the rod angle has little change during translation and changes late when power is applied.
3. Here is the practice routine I have employed:
A. During the first several minutes of casting, I repeat several times in my mind during the translation stage of the forward cast the words "1 o'clock" and then when power is applied I think one time only "11o'clock." During the translation phase of the back cast I repeat in my mind several times the words "11o'clock" and the when power is applied I think only one time "1 o'clock." (Change these with longer casts which requires more change in arc.)
B. I then progress to saying these out loud so I hear it. I do this for several minutes.
C. Next I focus my eyes on the rod to see that I am maintaining the 1 o'clock position during translation on forward cast and 11 o'clock position during translation on back cast.
D. I then change the focus from the rod to my rod hand. During forward translation I think about keeping the medial aspect of my hand from the wrist to the base of my little finger going toward the target. When power is applied I think about pulling that part of my hand down. During the translation phase of my back cast I focus on the thumb nail. I want it facing toward the sky during translation and then facing 180 away from target when I rotate.
E. When I think I have good timing which I grade based on very tight loops, I bring out the hoop and now (unlike when I first built it a few years ago) I consciously try to rotate late.
Jim Hund
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