Re: Distance cast 3

Walter,

I'll be there.  My #    (305) 872-2106

Best,

Gordy




On Feb 1, 2012, at 10:13 AM, WALTER SIMBIRSKI wrote:

> Gordy - I'm sorry I missed your call yesterday. I'll call you when I get home tonight.
>  
> Cheers
>  
> Walter
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gordy Hill <MasterStudyGroup@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 6:32 am
> Subject: Distance cast  3
> To: Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Walter & Group...
> > 
> > [GH]  WOW !  Lots of good responses.  Too many to 
> > share all of them.  Check out each one, come to your own 
> > conclusions, then I'll tell you what actually happened in our 
> > next message on this topic.
> > 
> > Gordy
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
> > 
> > [GH] From Jim Higgins:
> > 
> > Gordy
> >  
> > It sounds link the caster is trying to carry more line than his 
> > ability allows.  Have him carry less line in the air and shoot more.
> >  
> > Thanks
> > Jim Higgins
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH]  Jim,
> > 
> > We tried that.  Cast improved greatly, but he didn't make 
> > the distance.
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [GH]  From Rick Brown:
> > 
> > Gordy,
> >  
> > I think that the least obvious part of the problem could be the 
> > energy transfer from the front taper of the line to the leader. 
> > If the front taper of the line is too supple then it might not 
> > transfer enough energy to the leader to turn it over and if the 
> > butt section of the leader is too stiff the line might not be 
> > able to turn it over. This would be a ''last straw'' solution 
> > but worth checking if nothing else works.
> >  
> > A more obvious problem would be loss of line speed. A tight loop 
> > will travel faster through the air because it is less wind 
> > resistant than an open loop and it directs its energy more in 
> > the direction of the cast. I believe that the most probable 
> > cause of an open loop (at this level) would be beginning 
> > rotation too soon or making the stop a little too late with the 
> > rod tip pulling the rod leg down and away from the fly leg.
> >  
> > Not changing the trajectory from the 75' cast or not allowing a 
> > fraction more time for the back cast to unroll would also affect 
> > the distance.
> >  
> > best,   
> > 
> > Rick
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH] From Ernie French :
> > 
> > Gordy,
> > 
> > I thought I’d jump in on this.  There may be many human reasons 
> > for this failure to keep increasing distance but many times this 
> > failure can be attributed to the inability of the rod itself. 
> >   At some point there is going to be a diminishing ability of 
> > the rod, and more specifically the rod tip, to be able to handle 
> > the forces involved in throwing longer and longer lengths of 
> > line.  
> > 
> > Ernie French
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > [GH]  Ernie,
> > 
> > Good thought.  Jim Valle made a point of this a while back 
> > when he recommended that an instructor check out the student's 
> > tackle when problems arise.
> > 
> > In this actual case, however, the candidate was using a 9' 
> > Loomis GLX 7 wt. matched with a WF7F Scientific Anglers Mastery, 
> > Expert Distance Taper line.  (Should have been OK for this task).
> > 
> > Gordy
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH] Jim Chestnut puts all this together :
> > 
> > Hi Gordy,
> > From the clues you have given us:
> > 1: Increasing loop diameter
> > 2: Poor tracking on the backcast
> > 3: Forward cast beginning a bit too soon
> > 4: Ticking on the backcast when "pause" lengthened
> >  
> > Together these seem to indicate inadequate line speed on the 
> > backcast (as you also indicated I think).  Since the line is 
> > ticking when the pause is lengthened, there is probably more sag 
> > in the rod leg between caster and the loop on the backcast than 
> > there should be.  So  the caster could well be hurrying the 
> > forward cast in an effort  to prevent the ticking. 
> >  
> > I would: 
> > check the line tension/ straightness at the start of the backcast.
> > check for continued acceleration during the backcast rotation to 
> > the stop sequence.
> > check for a  rapid haul "late" in the backcast.
> > check for forward drift after the forward false cast.
> >  
> > Assuming he is not doing these things.  I would suggest to the 
> > caster that he watch his backcast and try to tighten up the 
> > backcast loop.
> > He could start with forward drift as the loop is unrolling on 
> > the forward false cast, proceeding to either drag or slide and 
> > into a "delayed" rotation and a "delayed" haul. By doing these, 
> > he will  increase line speed into the forward cast, and narrow 
> > the loop, and cut down on line sag  It will also enable a longer 
> > carry more  which will load the TCX more easily and earlier  for 
> > the  forward cast cast with a shorter shoot required if he wishes.
> > I would suggest to the caster that he not go for a distance 
> > release off a marginal backcast.
> > Cheers,
> > Jim
> >   `~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > [GH]   From Thomas Urbig :
> > Hi Gordy,
> >  
> > my initial thoughts would have been creep and an uncompletely 
> > unrolled loop upon the backcast. Your info that the loop opened 
> > up on the back cast indicates to me that the acceleration upon 
> > the backcast was not smooth and that the candidate did not make 
> > a crisp back-stop (which would lead to the opening).
> >  
> > Remedy could be to get the candidate to a better acceleration on 
> > the back cast and a good (potentially slightly earlier) stop. 
> > The earlier stop should lead to a higher backcast which is of 
> > course only good if we generate sufficient line speed on the 
> > back cast  so that it really straightens.
> >  
> > On the forward cast there is probably not enough acceleration (I 
> > guess in that case starting to fast) and doing the final 
> > acceleration with incompletely straightened backcast/before the 
> > complete line is moving forward. Did you see any tails on the 
> > forward cast?
> > If according to your info the stop on the forward cast is ok 
> > then the casting arc is probably too wide (->opening of the 
> > forward loop)!?
> > Potential remedy: the candidate should try to use less energy in 
> > the rod hand and generate more through the line hand. Try to 
> > have the candidate cast the amount of line with slower and 
> > slower rod hand movements. 2nd I would try to increase the speed 
> > of the line hand at the end of the haul (Speed up and stop for 
> > both line and rod hand). Higher stop would alleviate the wide 
> > and inefficient loop on the forward cast.
> >  
> > My two cents. Regards
> > Thomas
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > [GH]  From Len Anderson:
> > I would like to see more line speed by increasing haul speed on 
> > the back cast and forward cast. Look for a tight loop on the 
> > back cast and loop unroll to leader before beginning forward 
> > cast. Watch line to see loop formation on both back and forward cast. 
> >  
> >                                                                                  Len Anderson
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH] Thomas,
> > Yes.  Except for the creep (which I didn't find), all of 
> > the above pertained.
> > Gordy
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > [GH]  From Doug Swift:
> > Hi Gordy
> > In reading over the last few messages I would be watching for 
> > (1) a more controlled power application with a longer casting 
> > stroke to adjust to a longer length of line that should have 
> > been carried or shot into the last back cast.  (2). That the 
> > caster was watching the back cast to ensure good tracking, pause 
> > time and proper launch angle for the presentation cast.  (3) A 
> > well timed haul with enough speed/power to increase tip speed to 
> > accommodate the extra distance desired.   The six step method 
> > could be applied to these possible faults individually and in 
> > that order.
> > (P.S.    I think launch angle or the 180 deg. relationship 
> > between the back cast and forward cast is an important element 
> > in any distance cast)
> > Doug swift
> >  
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > [GH]  From Liam Duffy:
> > Gordy,
> >           Set your target, a foot further each lesson the 
> > student has what I call "examinitis" which I have, don't tell 
> > the student you have moved the target and "let him at it" relax 
> > it appears it all come from nerves the student has a "mental 
> > block" about a set distance for the exam so work him up to the 
> > distance WITHOUT TELLING HIM!! watch what happens I've used this 
> > technique on lots of pupils and it works!
> > Best Regards,
> > Liam Duffy 
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > ``
> > 
> > [GH]  From Bob Stouffer:
> > 
> > Dr Gordy
> > 
> > It is only ten feet more, but I will bet that his arc increased 
> > too much.
> > 
> > Bob Stouffer
> >  
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > [GH]  Yes, it did.  Hank Wu speaks to this :
> > Hi Gordy,
> > based on the further information you gave,
> > I guess his main problem is off the SLP.
> > For my personal experience, 
> > when we want to cast further, we usually swing the rod with a 
> > bigger arc.
> > And this big arc swing always cause the rod tip traveled in a 
> > convex path instead of the straight line path. And that of 
> > course dissipate the energy.
> > For me, the 75ft or 85ft cast is not a big difference, so I 
> > think the caster in fact no need to change his casting arc 
> > dramatically.I will suggest him just do the translation motion a 
> > little bit longer. No need to use such a big swing motion. Try 
> > to keep the SLP then he won't waste the energy. 
> > And about the tracking problem, for a right hand caster, it is 
> > very nature to swing your rod from your right side to your left 
> > side when your swing motion is very big. Just like you use a 
> > Japanese katana.
> > But when you do the fly casting with a right hand, most of time 
> > the tracking is on your right side. So if you swing your rod 
> > from your right side to your left side(no matter how far it is), 
> > you actually are off tracking. To fix this, I will suggest him 
> > to pick a target which is just aligned to the tracking(with a 
> > right-hand casting, the tracking is about 1~2ft off his right 
> > shoulder). And try to point his rod tip to the target when he 
> > does the presentation. 
> > 
> > Hank
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Hank,
> > Yes.  The casting arc must match the amount of line carried 
> > and the rod bend in order to have an (almost) straight line path 
> > of the rod tip.
> > Gordy
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > [GH] From Don Pendleton:
> > Gordy,
> > I am going to guess the caster is hauling throughout the entire 
> > casting stroke on the nice 75'.  My suggestion would be to work 
> > with him to delay rotation and delay haul. 
> >  
> > I would teach delaying the haul by telling the caster to false 
> > cast making his stroke progressively shorter and shorter, trying 
> > to make the haul do the work.  After a couple of reps of false 
> > casting this he will be out of breath and in pain.  Now tell him 
> > to lengthen his stroke and make the haul late, long and fast.  
> > Try to keep from laughing while you do this to the student.  
> > I've done it, it works.  Taught to me by Jim Laing.
> >  
> > Don
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH] From Gary Davison:
> > 
> > QUESTIONS :
> > 
> > 1. Briefly describe one or more of the problems which you think 
> > may be going on here.
> >  
> > Could be poor timing based on the added line carry, which in 
> > turn caused slack in the system, which was amplified by power 
> > being applied to the cast too early. Which caused a reduction of 
> > arc needed to carry the cast to full extension.  Arc reduction 
> > was not enough to cause tailing but enough to cause the collapse 
> > of the cast.
> >  
> > Then by adding more power by the caster to achieve the results 
> > desired thinking power would solve the situation.  The results 
> > would just get worse.  Tails would then appear!
> > 
> > 2. Let us know your way of tackling the problem (or problems)
> > Wait on the cast to develop by waiting longer as more line is 
> > added to the system, apply the power evenly throughout the 
> > cast to the stop, while maintaining good communication (tension) 
> > with the line at all times throughout the cast to the 
> > stop,  Provide good application of the haul as late as possible 
> > to enhance the cast in the direction desired.
> >  
> > (I would ask for the caster to apply good timing by 
> > maintaining good tension on the line to minimize slack in the 
> > cast.  Ease up and smooth out the cast with evenly applied power 
> > with good stops, to achieve the results desired using a good 
> > late haul timed correctly to direct the cast. )
> >  
> > It comes down to Timing, Slack, Power, Arc to maintain 
> > SLP= Distance Fly Cast! 
> > 
> > Gary
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH] From Tom Rueping:
> > 
> > Hi Gordy,
> > This sounds a little like a TIMING problem. I have noticed with 
> > some students, a tendency to not extend the pause as the length 
> > of line is extended. Not realizing this, the caster will apply 
> > more "oomph" and the whole casting stroke begins to fall apart.
> > As a solution, I suggest to the caster that he/she turn and 
> > watch the backcast while making the false casts at the length of 
> > line carried for the 70-75 foot cast ( the "comfort length") and 
> > extend the line for the final delivery on the final backcast. 
> > Extending the line on the forward cast immediately prior to the 
> > delivery cast, often results in a loss of control due to 
> > exceeding the "comfort length" leaving the caster to make a 
> > critical back cast with more line extended than he/she can 
> > carry. What you observe then is a hurried and usually over 
> > powered cast (A MESS). By extending the line beyond the "comfort 
> > length" on the back cast, and watching that cast, the caster can 
> > see the line straighten for an efficient forward cast.
> > Tom
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH]  A  generic "short answer" from Rene Hesse:
> > 
> > Hi Gordy, 
> > 
> > Short answer because I'm on my lunch hour.
> > 
> > Watch the line and then with the 6 step process evaluate it with the 
> > 'variables' adjusted.
> > 
> > Stroke, timing, power and trajectory.
> > 
> > Long, wordy, extensive answers upon request.
> > 
> > Cheers, 
> > Rene
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >