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Walter & Group....
[GH] "Status thunderstormicus", today, here in the Keys. My electric power was out this morning.
Mark Surtees answers Ally Gowans' comments.
>From Mark:
Hi Gordy
"I have taught lots of fly fishers only using terms that students have the ability to instantly comprehend (that of course depends on the student). It’s my job to make them better/happier fly fishers not engineering, maths or physics graduates; I did that for them a long time ago!"
Yep, I don’t teach using any of these terms either, I have used fruit and vegetables, in season of course, sundry bakery items and underpant elastic, but I have never thought of using the term “curvilinear translation” in a lesson any more than I would think of using “the point of line launch direction”. Neither is going to be very effective from a teaching point of view..
This is an MCI study group, however, and it is not unreasonable to expect a Masters Candidate to not only know that there is a difference between rotation and translation but also how they work together within a casting stroke. There is no maths required, no engineering, no graduate level physics, these two terms are so basic that they are taught to 10 year old kids at school.
Mark
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From Bryan Martin:
I agree completely with Ally's approach. There is a significant difference between analysing casting mechanics and teaching a student to cast. I will get an impression of a student's background early on in a teaching session and introduce concepts to which the student will comfortably relate.
As an engineer (retired) I find these discussions both interesting and informative and any knowledge gained can often be suitably adapted to improve my teaching ability, but as always, keep it simple and not confusing for teaching purposes.
However, all discussion amongst this group is a good thing.
Bryan
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>From Lyth Hartz:
Hi Gordy,
I have been away from home for much of the first half of July and am now just able to get back to answer the question that Mark Surtees asked me back on July 2nd about how to teach a student about matching the arc of the rod to the bend in the rod. Mark mentions that he does not say these words to a student anymore because he’s not been able to find a way to effectively teach this. While I respect everything that I have read and learned from Mark from his contributions to this discussion, I do plan to still tell students about this concept as it is one of the essentials from Bill Gammel that the arc must vary depending on the amount of line being cast and I think that is related to the bend in the rod.
We are discussing much about the “science” of casting here and I think that we should not forget about the “art” of casting in our instruction. I would tell my students that this is a concept that is difficult to teach but necessary for the student to practice knowing that varying the arc to try to match the bend of the rod will help them obtain the straight line path of the rod tip. This is when I let them simply cast and play with their casting or as many have said: this is the student “self discovery” time. I think that they need time without me hovering about them so that they can learn the feel of the cast for themselves. I ask them to watch the line being cast noting the loop size and the appearance of the fly leg of the loop. This will give them the necessary feedback about their casting stroke. Later, I will come back to them to observe and offer suggestions and answer questions that they may have. I think that this is my best way to help a student with the “art” of casting which is also very important. It is especially important when so many of the necessary parts of the “science” of casting are happening concurrently as Mark indicates.
This time for a student to practice and “play” with the fly rod casting would also apply to Mark’s question about moderating the force to control the casting angle or moderating the force to control the bend. Again, I think that these science parts of the cast are likely all happening at the same time and I think when a student progresses to better casting it is because they are beginning to apply the “art form” of casting for their particular style.
Mark, thank you for the time and effort you put in to your questions and challenges. They really make one think. I am interested in your thoughts about my answer here.
Hey Gordy, it was great to see you in Spokane.
Lyth Hartz
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[GH] Lyth,
I, too, use the concept of matching rod bend to casting arc when I teach fly casting..... but not for beginners.
Granted, it is a simplification made by boiling down the various arm and hand movements which add to the adjustment of Casting arc to Rod bend. Mark Surtees is correct about that: "Casters use predominantly hand path coupled with angle change to deal with the changing bend profile as it displaces up and down the rod just because it’s, physically, way easier."
Even Mel Krieger's line drawings, while dramatically showing the relationship between casting arc and rod bend, do show a bit of hand descent. * ** With some casts, that hand movement is much greater. Advanced casters learn to add these variables without even thinking about them.
I do it in various ways, depending upon the teaching venue. Explanations to match :
1. Classroom:
a.) Line drawings on blackboard.
b.) PowerPoint slide.
c.) Slowly dragging the tip of the rod against the ceiling or wall to artificially bend it as I change the angle.
2. Field:
a.) Doing the same thing against the side of a building or other structure.
b.) Same maneuver with the rod tip on the grass along a stretched rope or fly line.
c.) Students perform horizontal rod plane casting on grass with attention directed at match between rod bend (application of force to achieve it) as they cast with loops formed between two parallel stretched ropes.
d.) Once mastered, students "go airborne" as they cast with less horizontal casting plane.
3. Field or water:
a.) Instructor demonstrates these casts:
- Reasonable SLP of rod tip with decent match between rod bend and casting arc.
- Convex path of rod tip and large loop when the rod bend is insufficient to match the casting arc.
- Concave path of the rod tip and tailing loop when the rod bend it too great for the casting arc.
(Granted that the latter two situations can be handled by other means, such as aborting a tail with added hand motion, but I keep it simple and avoid getting into that except at a very advanced or instructor level.)
* See attached drawing.
* * THE ESSENCE OF FLY CASTING, by Mel Krieger, 1987, p.8
Gordy
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>From Jerry Puckett:
Not sure this helps but to keep it simple. When a car is in motion the tires are moving linearly (translation) while , at the same time, all tires are rotating. Anyway, not sure it has any merit to our discussions but a thought to play..
Jerry
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Attachment:
Casting arc : rod bend.pdf
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