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Walter & Group...
>From Ted Warren:
Perhaps we should breakdown the term we want to define into pieces or phrases but not try to make it one complex compound sentence.
For example:
CASTING STROKE : THE THING WE DO TO CAST THE LINE. The casting stroke is composed of these elements:
a. translation which is ...................
b. rotation which is ...................
c. ............
d. ............
Isn't this the way we teach? Start with the simple and add elements as necessary to achieve the desired result.
Ted
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[GH] Ted,
Many ways to teach, as you know. Your suggestion is a good one!
Gordy
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>From Paul Arden (I Added * and **):
Hi Gordy,
not sure if you got this message since I sent it to a different account,
Hi Gordy,
I know you this but most of the group probably doesn't.
The Definitions problems are not just simply two or more groups of people disagreeing upon certain definitions, or individuals disagreeing upon certain definitions. The problem is that the vast majority of instructors have sets of definitions in their heads that when put together into a complete model create conflicts. It would be a good idea for everyone to try to put together a set of definitions, to write them down and see if they actually fit. Some definitions are based around casting hand, others around rod tip, yet others around the loop. Try putting them together and you have massive conflicts.
Example: Creep - rod motion against an unrolling loop.
Problem 1 - all motion against an unrolling loop is therefore Creep. Problem 2 it becomes impossible by definition to begin the stroke before the loop has unrolled, i.e. too soon. Really?
And then let's look at another of the problems. Is Creep part of the Casting Stroke?
If yes then how does it narrow available Casting Arc?
If no then when does it end and Casting Stroke begin? And if that's how we choose to define it, then how a) do we separate it from Forward Drift, or not? b) Separate it from the Lift, or not? And c) most importantly from Casting Stroke itself?
And that's just the beginning of the Casting Stroke. Another problem is that Casting Arc often is linked to Casting Stroke and Stroke Length is often the entire rod hand movement. If you pick rotation as the start of Casting Stroke, then you lose Drag. But most people use Drag to lengthen Casting Stroke Length. Can Drag and Creep co-occur? And what happens when you go three-dimensional and change planes between Casting Strokes?
And so on and so on and so on. And then just when you think you have a model that works, someone realizes that some funky Spey cast creates a definitions conflict. So you figure that out and then you find find you've just another impossibility. And then after a great deal of time you discover that the conflicts from the particular model you've been working on are unresolvable, and so you build a new model and start the whole process again.
It's not for me to discuss particular sets here, only that our fundamental difference between the FFF proposed set and our set was that we ultimately went with a qualitative set of definitions and the FFFDC* attempted to create a quantitive set. We couldn't fix the conflicts in a quantitive set and felt that these definitions were becoming so difficult to actually use that they were practically useless (there were many other issues too, but that's unimportant).
Now for me, I think it's crazy that we don't have a set of definitions when we actually have definitions used in the exams, here, and everywhere instructors meet, and often for teaching. But having spent an enormous amount of time discussing and thinking the subject I can attest it's not a simple job of jotting down definitions on the back of a beer mat. But I have had a thoroughly good time discussing these things and have learned a great deal in the process. AAPGAI has no problems with our set incidentally, and said they already used them.
If you take Jim's beginning of the of the Casting Arc and Stroke as being the same as Casting Stroke, we run into the problem that Creep, Forward Drift, Sweep and Lift are all part of the Casting Arc. This is not how we commonly use the terms or understand flycasting. We commonly say for example, Creep narrowed the available Casting Arc and caused the tail. If Creep is part of the Casting Arc then we lose that, so I would have to ask what is Jim's definition of Creep?
Another problem, would be trying to apply the definition to a Roll Cast. After forming the D-loop (and is that a Stroke?) there is often a rod repositioning move (SL Drift) in the direction of the Cast. This would be included in the Casting Arc if you pick Casting Arc to be the entire motion in the direction of the Cast, and indeed the Cast would have begun. There are problems with the Belgian Cast and Spey Casting becomes a nightmare.
At the minimum you need definitions for Casting Stroke, Stroke Length, Casting Arc, Creep, Drift, Drag, Sweep, Lift. And if your definitions don't allow for change of Rod Plane then you need a definition for this. And then try applying them to a Pick up and Lay down, a Roll Cast, an Oval Cast, a Single Spey, a Double Spey and the two that usually break sets: the Snake Roll and Snap Cast.
I can tell you however that trying to do that by defining each component first and then putting them together will leave you very frustrated. You need to decide on a model first that applies to all casts and then go about defining it. It's actually a fascinating exercise. There are many models, FFFDC tried to divide the Cast into six components, translation and rotation pre, during and post Casting Stroke. Sexyloops divided it into three, rod repositioning, line repositioning and Casting Stroke. But neither of us started with only one model.
About 8 years ago, before we realised how complicated this was, both Bruce** and I had definitions that picked the beginning of Casting Stroke with rod hand movement in the direction of the cast. Bruce had stroke length as the distance the rod tip travelled and I was busy trying to redefine Creep such that it wasn't a fault.*
I don't think anyone's definitions has remained the same as when they started, and most of them have been changed many many times. I've broken at least four sets of definitions of my own on the Sexyloops Board. This last set hasn't broken in two years.
I'm open to anyone putting anyone putting another set together. I also don't like Casting Stroke being contained within Overall Stroke. I can tell you that we looked for another term for [Overall] Stroke but couldn't find a term that didn't cause a conflict somewhere. So I've learned to live with it.
Sorry for a long post!
Cheers, Paul
* FFFDC = Federation of Fly Fishers Definitions Committee.
** Bruce Richards
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[GH] Paul,
I was in the process of crafting an explanation for what lies behind the scenes as various groups/committees undertake the task of writing definitions when your message came through. Now i don't need to do it, because you have said pretty much what I was about to say.
You have given a few examples of the considerations needed as we try to fit each definition with every other one. Sounds easy..... until one attempts to do it.
I agree fully that tackling one definition alone is folly. At the very start it is necessary to consider any one definition in the light of each and every other one else the "model" won't work.
I think there will always be a few outliers which won't fit the whole model. Also... there must be sufficient flexibility to allow changes with time and increased experience.
The long hours and years which went in to the Sexyloops definitions and those which went into our CBOG Glossary committee deliberations should be appreciated by our readers. I, too, learned a great deal in my years of trying to come up with them.
Gordy
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