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Walter & Group:
[GH] MY ERROR.
Yesterday's message contained 6 attachments. I had intended to send only the first three on the list. The other three were duplications except for one [Tailing Lefty-1.pdf(118 KB) ] which was incorrectly labeled. In formatting the message, I had thought the last three had been erased, but somehow they came through anyway. My apologies for that.
Gordy
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[GH} More thoughts on definitions :
From Ally Gowans:
Incidentally re definitions. I too would like to have definitions but due to the nature of fly casting I doubt if much of it can be defined in the true sense of that word. If they had been easy to word with clarity they would exist and probably would have existed for some time. Each time I see a list of defined terms I find myself driving through them with horse and cart or they are so glib that they are of little use. And sometimes I wonder if those who wrote them have ever had to be accurate or are experienced fly fishers.
Are definitions desirable? Yes
Are definitions necessary? Clearly not.
Ally
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From Walter Simbirski:
Gordy,
Some thoughts about casting definitions:
Don't let the physicists (and engineers, and lawyers, etc.) get involved. They are great for adapting and clarifying definitions they are already comfortable with (load, force, etc.) but for things that they can't relate directly to, such as "casting stroke", they tend to fall in to analysis paralysis. Even when they are familiar with a term it can take centuries to come up with a universally accepted, formal definition for the term. If you don't believe me try to find a universally accepted definition for "wave". I included lawyers in this mix as well because much of their training revolves around exploring the meaning of a single word from every possible angle and then building definitions using words and expressions that most of us don't understand. We can do without "whereas" and "heretofore" or the "fiduciary duty" of the rod tip to the line.
On the subject of "casting stroke" - I can't remember ever having a need or desire to use the term "casting stroke" when teaching so why do I need a definition of it for teaching purposes? And if I ever did let it slip out during a lesson am I really going to provide a definition along with it? Am I ever likely to get in to a discussion with a beginner, or even an advanced student, about whether "creep" is part of the "casting stroke" during a training session? The only times I can recall being involved in these types of discussions are during a casting certification test or when working with a group to try and come up with casting definitions. I don't know if I actually taught anybody anything about "casting stroke" at those times...
If I ever do need to use the term "casting stroke" I would like to think that the definition I associate with it isn't "for teaching purposes", whatever that means. When we teach kids about multiplication we don't have a definition that is "for teaching purposes" we have a definition that is real and accurate. It won't go into detail about number spaces and matrix arithmetic but the definition we give for multiplication is entirely accurate.
As you can see I find the idea of definitions "for teaching purposes" a bit confusing. Do I tell the student, "Here is the definition of casting stroke", and then send them off on their own? I wouldn't introduce a child to multiplication by giving them the definition followed by a test and I'm pretty sure nobody in your discussion group teaches casting that way.
Just a few random thoughts...
Hope things are well with you.
Walter
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[GH] Walter,
Candid remarks, considering that you are a scientific chap !
When I referred to "for teaching purposes" I had in the back of my mind the fact that when the FFF Glossary Committee proposed a list of definitions, some complained that they wouldn't be useful enough for teaching.
I, too, avoid using definitions for students, except for advanced students and candidates at both levels.
Gordy
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[GH] More on tailing loops with our next message.
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