Re: Problem: Back cast loops strike the ground 2

Walter,

Makes sense to me.

G


On Dec 15, 2011, at 12:10 PM, WALTER SIMBIRSKI wrote:

> Gordy,
>  
> The answers to the casting fault diagnosis/correction are interesting in that they all reflect thought processes that I expect to see from instructors with some level of experience. I'm curious how someone would instill this knowledge in someone else who wants to be an instructor. I'm not sure if anyone else is interested in this but I'll share my process and feel free to critique from there:
>  
> 1. First determine if there is a fault. Is the student experimenting for example? Am I looking at things from a bad angle? If the line is hitting the ground there isn't much question that there is an issue but it doesn't hurt to be sure before spending time and effort on an issue.
>  
> 2. Eliminate equipment issues. The quickest way I know to determine this is to try the equipment yourself. If I find any potential issues with the equipment it's likely that a beginner will have even bigger issues with the equipment. Also ensure that the student hasn't exceeded the limitations of the equipment or their skill level (e.g. trying to carry 80 feet of line). If casting doesn't improve go to next step.
>  
> 3. Eliminate (if possible) environmental issues. Is there a tail wind for example? Many beginners have a hard time with even a slight tail wind. If casting doesn't improve go to next step.
>  
> 4. Determine if there is one fault (line hits ground) or multiple faults (large loops and line hits ground). Identify all of the faults you are seeing even if they seem minor.
>  
> 5. Consider all potential causes of the fault or faults - begin with the 5 essentials, look at the stop, the 180 degree rule, trajectory. What things are causing the fault(s)? Which is causing the most problems? Does it make sense that the potential cause of the fault can actually create the fault we are seeing? For example - trajectory could explain why the line hits the ground. Timing (pausing for much too long) could also result in the line hitting the ground. Breaking the 180 degree rule could explain this. Of all the things that could cause the line to hit the ground which ones also result in large loops? Eliminate the non-starters and concentrate on the realistic causes.
>  
> 6. Observe to see which of these things are actually happening e.g. is the trajectory so low on the back cast that the student can't avoid hitting the ground? Is the pause long enough to cause significant line sag? Is the casting arc much too large? What is the student doing to cause this? Look at wrist movement, arm movement, shoulder movement, grip. Where is the rod stopping? Is it a distinct stop or a mushy stop? You may want to observe from more than one vantage point such as from the side and from the front (make sure the caster isn't worried about hitting you).
>  
> 7. Do your observations in 6 agree with your analysis in 5? Based on your experience do you feel that you have identified the fault(s) and cause(s)?
>  
> 8. If there are multiple issues decide which one or ones you will address first.
>  
> 9. Suggest modifications for the student to try and observe the effect. Was the student able to adapt? If not what other modifications can you try? If the student made the desired change did it have the desired effect?
>  
> 10. Have you dealt with all of the issues you want to for now or do you want to student to practice the current modification a bit first before making additional changes?
>  
> This is more or less the process I follow...
>  
> Thanks!
>  
> Walter
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gordy Hill <MasterStudyGroup@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:12 am
> Subject: Problem:  Back cast loops strike the ground 2
> To: Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Walter & Group...
> > 
> > [GH] Attached:  Message from Joe Libeu on both CCI and MCI 
> > candidates being asked to identify and correct casting faults.
> > 
> > 
> > [GH] More answers to review.
> > 
> > As we read these, we must keep in mind that a limited amount of 
> > information has been presented leading to some assumptions which 
> > cannot be avoided.  This makes it necessary to consider a 
> > range of diagnoses rather than any single one, since we do not 
> > have the luxury of actually seeing the caster's movements nor 
> > those of the fly rod.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [GH]  From Bob Garber :
> > 
> > 
> > 1.     Likely diagnosis?
> >  
> > Big open loops hitting the ground.
> > Rod tip stopping in a downward direction or not stopping at all.
> > Resulting from a concave rod tip path caused by excessive 
> > wrist/forearm action.
> >  
> > 2.     Corrections?
> > Stop the back cast sooner/higher, keep a firm wrist and just 
> > squeeze the grip at the end of the back stroke.  
> > Try to make the back cast with as straight a rod tip path as possible.
> > Results in tighter/narrower loops not hitting the ground.
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH]  Bob,
> > 
> > The concept of, "SQUEEZE TO A STOP" is taught by Floyd 
> > Franke.  It does help correct that fault.
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH] From John Bilotta :
> > 
> > 
> >  Your new student casts with big poorly controlled loops.  Her 
> > back cast loops strike the ground with each attempt.
> > 
> > 1. Likely diagnosis?
> > 1. Wristing or breaking the  wrist much on the backcast.
> > 2. Ripping  the pick up off the ground/water during the backcast.
> > 3. Using a rod that is too large for the person.
> > 4. Trying to cast pick up too much line
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 2. Corrections?
> > 1. Tell her not to rotate the wrist, just squeeze and stop the 
> > rod as it approaches her ear.
> > 2. Stop with the thumb point up. 
> > 3. Work on making the pick up smoother.
> > 4. Make sure the rod isn't too big or heavy for the caster.
> > 5. Shorten the amount of line she is working with.
> > [GH]  7. Use a wristlok.
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks
> > John
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH]  John,
> > 
> > I'm glad you added, "6. Try casting on the horizontal 
> > plane".  The caster can see the loops in each 
> > direction.  Joan Wulff's method goes a long way to correct 
> > this problem *
> > 
> > *  Joan Wulff's FLY CASTING TECHNIQUES, 1987, pp. 57-59.
> > 
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH]  From Peter Minnick:
> > 
> > 
> >  Your new student casts with big poorly controlled loops.  Her 
> > back cast loops strike the ground with each attempt.
> > 
> > 1. Likely diagnosis?  Did not properly accelerate and stop the 
> > rod on the backcast.
> > 
> > 2. Corrections? With a straight line layout and the rod tip 
> > pointing at the fly SLOWLY accelerate the rod to a stop. The arc 
> > of the backcast should match the length of line outside the rod 
> > tip. There must be enough gradual acceleration to bend the rod 
> > and create enough line speed so that the line will travel at a 
> > straight line  {180 degrees} away from it's target. Following 
> > the principles..no slack,SLP, short line short stroke,long line 
> > long stroke ,correct application of power at the right time to a stop.
> > 
> >   had to add keeping a firm wrist.....
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH]  Peter,
> > 
> > Even if she had accelerated the rod to a "STOP", but did so with 
> > the rod stopping in a downward direction, she'd have still hit 
> > the ground.
> > 
> > I like the way Lefty addresses this as he tells his student, 
> > "Stop with your rod tip going back and in a somewhat upward 
> > direction."
> > You are right in that the casting arc for her back cast must 
> > match the rod bend and the amount of line carried.
> > 
> > You have also called attention to the "180 degree rule" which is 
> > that the trajectory of the forward cast and that of the back 
> > cast should be approximately in a 180 degree line.  Some 
> > refer to this as the "line plane".  Had she done that 
> > properly, she'd have picked up from the water (forward and down) 
> > and made her back cast BACK AND UP.
> > 
> > While you are correct in her having no slack, it is likely that 
> > slack was not one of the direct causes of her problem.
> > 
> > You added, " had to add keeping a firm wrist..... ".
> > 
> > Failure to control the wrist is a common underlying cause of 
> > this fault.  This has been variously termed, "floppy 
> > wrist", "Out of control wrist", "Wristing", etc.
> > 
> > Gordy
> > 
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH]  From Bill Kiester :
> > 
> >  
> > 1. Likely diagnosis?
> >  
> > The student is unable to control their casting arc.
> >  
> > 2. Corrections ?
> >  
> > The corrections are dependent on the experience of the student.  
> > I have described approaches from in depth to just reminders.
> >  
> > I think that first the student must understand that the casting 
> > arc must be stopped at both ends and that those stops cause the 
> > line to roll out parallel to the ground or water.  The point can 
> > be demonstrated using ground loops done with a clothesline.  The 
> > student can usually make tight loops in fifteen minutes than the 
> > problem becomes moving those loops in to the air.
> >  
> > A great way to concentrate on the ground strikes on the backcast 
> > is to use the nose touch on pickups and lay downs per David 
> > Diaz’s presentation.  Have the student perform a pickup and lay 
> > down directly overhead such that their casting hand comes right 
> > to their face.  Tell them to touch the thumb of their casting 
> > hand to their nose.  They will stop the rod on the backcast. 
> >  
> > If it is just reminders walk up to you student while they are 
> > false casting such that your body blocks the forward cast and 
> > forces a proper stop.  In a like manner hold your arm up to 
> > block the student’s backcast to form a proper stop.
> >  
> >  
> > Bill Keister
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > Bill,
> > 
> > YES !  The body blocks.  I figured someone would add 
> > that one.
> > If the instructor stands close behind her, she will sense his 
> > presence and have no wish to strike him on the back cast.
> > 
> > In line with that:  The instructor can stand behind and a 
> > bit off to her side.  As she brings her rod back and down, 
> > he can reach out and stop the rod motion with his hand.  
> > Helps make the point with few or no words.  You included that.
> > 
> > David Diaz's "nose touch" is a form of body block.  Works 
> > fine when teaching to cast in the vertical plane.  Of 
> > course, it won't work with an off vertical or off horizontal rod 
> > plane style.
> > 
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > [GH]  Mark Fauvet adds to our "bag of tricks" :
> > 
> > 
> > Your new student casts with big poorly controlled loops.  Her 
> > back cast loops strike the ground with each attempt.
> > 
> > 1. Likely diagnosis? 
> > Although there are others, my experience is that this fault at 
> > this stage of casting development mostly comes from two major 
> > reasons. Not looking at their Back Cast (they have no idea where 
> > the line is going) and excessive use (or better yet, lack of 
> > control) of the wrist, often brought on by the thumb on top 
> > grip. This grip for many people seems to doom them to over-
> > flexing their wrist.
> > 
> > 2. Corrections?
> > Show them and teach them to learn to look back, at least for 
> > some of the casts until they learn to 'feel' the cast and I 
> > encourage a different grip, V, screw-driver or even forefinger 
> > on top for the hardcore wristers.
> > 
> > cheers,
> > Marc Fauvet
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > Marc,
> > 
> > Yes.  Changing the grip sometimes helps, especially when 
> > the "thumb-on-top" grip is changed to one of the so-called, "V-
> > grips" or Mel Krieger's, "Extended finger grip".  **
> > 
> > I stay with the "thumb-on-top" grip as I teach the Lefty Kreh 
> > style of casting since it works so well with this particular 
> > style. Lefty's method of teaching this along with his concept of 
> > the "elbow on the shelf" and a very stiff wrist alone helps 
> > prevent this problem. ***
> > 
> > One method I found which sometimes works, is to have the student 
> > try to pinch the thumb and forefinger together at the back cast 
> > "stop".
> > While these grip changing methods oft work, they don't provide 
> > an understanding by the student of the cause of the fault.
> > 
> > **  The Essence of Flycasting, By Mel Krieger, 1987, pp. 22-27.
> > 
> > ***  CASTING with LEFTY KREH, 2008, pp. 20-58.
> > 
> > Gordy
> > 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >