Paul Arden states:
"It was very interesting at the time and is still not being completely accepted in all quarters that the Loop creates an upward force that competes against gravity. Walter thinks this is not the case."
Gordy, I'm being taken out of context again it seems. I don't want to weigh down this board with a
bunch of technical mumbo jumbo but for the record here are my actual thoughts (and anybody who
wants to become part of the discussion should join in on Sexyloops):
With regards to the upwards force I think it's safe to say that different shapes exhibit different
amounts of drag as they travel through the air. Here is some good information about that
The more important questions are:
1. How significant is the amount of lift with regards to loop shape? If the amount of upwards force exhibited by one loop
shape is a tiny bit greater than another then does the casting community really care or is this another forum for
discussion amongst the techies in the crowd?
2. How does it manifest in the cast?, i.e. is it more likely for the loop to act like a flexible object when non-uniform forces
are applied to the surface of the object or as a rigid object? A long winded way of saying if the fly leg is pushed on with
a certain amount of force and the climbing loop shape in the rod leg is being pushed on with a different amount of force
then isn't it likely that the loop shape will change during the cast rather than the loop will somehow support the whole
line? We often see loops change shape. Chase did some great videos last time we discussed this. The videos showed
that there wasn't a significant difference in the hang time of a 30 foot cast and a 100 foot cast.
3. Most significantly - Does any of this have any benefit when fly casting? There is a very important thing to consider here
and that is the size of the loop. The techies at Sexyloops consider the forward drag coefficient (i.e. resistance against
the loop traveling in the X direction) to be the same for an elliptical loop shape and a climbing loop shape. Personally I
think that is wrong but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt in their favour. In order for a loop to be a climbing loop
shape with a significant amount of lift associated with it there needs to be a rather long sloping leading edge in the
rod leg of the loop (i.e. from the point at the front of the loop down to the horizontal section of the rod leg). Given this
I think it's safe to say that we can cast much smaller elliptically shaped loops than we can climbing loop shapes.
If anybody disputes the benefits of tighter loops I suggest they try casting in to a strong head wind while varying
the size and shape of their loops.
Cheers
Walter
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 3:34 AM
Subject: Hang time - line fall 2
Walter & Group...
[GH] REMINDER : Several Group members asked me about reading the LOOP articles of former years. We can do this by accessing any of them on the FFF Website.
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[GH] From Paul Arden :
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Thanks Walter and Hi Gordy!
Sorry I've been absent for a while but I have been following.
I have no idea what Hang Time is, and despite being around many distance casters over the years, I've never heard the _expression_ used! That said I would love to get involved in a discussion over it with fellow distance casters.
The ongoing discussion that Walter mentions goes back ten years to when Bruce and Noel got into an argument with Tim R. and Paul Burgess on the SL Board. It was very interesting at the time and is still not being completely accepted in all quarters that the Loop creates an upward force that competes against gravity. Walter thinks this is not the case. From my perspective from casting on the top of mountains and casting at an angle downwards I think it does. But who knows?!
With regards hitting the J, LSP or after LSP, I definitely hit post LSP, and I defy anyone to make a competent straight line cast doing anything else. Have someone watch you backcast and call Loop Straight, and try to hit their call and you'll see what I mean.
Cheers from a rather cold Australia,
Paul
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[GH] To avoid confusion :
"J" = Shape of the unfurling loop = "candy cane".
"LSP" = line straight position.
Can't disagree that you probably meet your objective of starting your forward cast AFTER the point where your backcast loop has fully unfurled. This leads to my questions :
1. How do you teach this to your student ? If this student waits until the line and leader are completely straight, isn't he likely to start the forward cast a bit too late ?
2. Why not "hit it" exactly AT the point of loop straightening for short and medium distance casts ? I find that most students can come pretty close to that point when they react to seeing the back cast loop almost fully unroll.
(I can see value in waiting until your line has fallen enough to allow an approximately 180 degree of trajectory between the falling back cast and the new forward cast when carrying a long line for distance casting.)
Gordy
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[GH] From Steve Rajeff :
Hi Gordon,
What context is "Hang time" to be used?
Not sure if it is when the leader has straightened and the line is hanging in the air, or if it is describing the fly hovering over the target,
but it might be described as the time the line/leader/fly may suspend in air before needing to initiate the next stroke.
Steve
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[GH] From Ben Foo :
Hi Gordy,
In my opinion, hang time is used to describe the length of time a moving object spends in the air against gravity before it falls to the ground. In this case, an unfurling loop. I’m unsure if I’m going off topic but to maximize hang time in distance casting, the final delivery is launched in a slightly ascending trajectory for longer distances in no wind conditions.
Regards,
Ben
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[GH] Ben,
You are on topic. I think this is the way many fly casters look at "hang time" here in the U.S.A.
I agree with Joe Libeu that a hovered fly is included in which case we could describe it as the time a newly unrolled loop of line spends aerialized prior to striking the ground or water in advance of the next cast.
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[GH] From John Field :
Hi Gordy,
Ed Jaworowski and Lefty Kreh are big proponents of the “J timing”. This can work for many, depending on reaction time and hand speed. I use visual keys for timing when casting in distance competition or practice. I watch the line. When I fish, I subconsciously use feel because I’m watching the water. Most others do too. In Jason Borger’s *Nature of Fly Casting pg. 67 ”The rearward tug of the line and the forward acceleration of the rod must come together. At the beginning of the forward cast you should actually feel the weight of the line against the rod tip. If not, you have missed that critical point of Inertia Loading”. He also says on pg. 68, “Many casters refer to the feeling of the unrolling line as the “tug””.
In Joan Wulff’s *Fly Casting Techniques, pg. 54, she describes “Constant Pressure Timing” which aims at maintaining the feeling of the line’s weight and rod load to aid in good timing and loading. On Pg. 55, Joan says you lose rod load if you start forward too early, and if you start too late, you lose the feeling of line weight in the rod-tip.
If you watch great casts, the amount of fall is compensated for with the right line speed and back-cast trajectory in order to set-up for a good forward cast. That caster loads the rod when the line has straightened-out and before it slackens.
*Fly Casting Techniques, by Joan Wulff, The Lyons Press 1987
*Nature of Fly Casting, by Jason Borger, Shadow Caster Press 2001
Good fishing,
John Field
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[GH] In our next message, we'll have a detailed discussion of HANG TIME by Jeff Wagner.