Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 7:12 AM
Subject: Hang time - line fall 3
Walter & Group...
Subject: Re: Hang time - line fall 2
Hi Gordy,
I have a question about this topic.
When you say "Hang Time", what is the precise definition of it?
Does it mean how long your line can stay in the air after you launching your line on your backcast ,
or it means how long your line can stay in the air after your line is fully unrolled on your backcast.
In my opinion,
when I do the distance casting, I will stop higher on my back cast to let the line have enough time to drop and adjust the trajectory to keep the 180 degree rule then I do my deliver forward cast.
Theoretically, the perfect time for me to do the deliver cast is just as the same time as your line(loop) is totally unrolled on your backcast.
But this is just theoretical.
It is hardly to match the perfect timing. And I think to start your deliver cast too early is worse than to start too late.
So what I do is to let the back stop higher then I have enough time to let I line totally unrolled and drop to fit my trajectory.
After the line is totally unrolled and become straight on my back, the gravity will pull the line down,
so I still can feel the weight of the line on my back.
This feeling of line weight can reload the rod perfectly for me.
And this feeling of line weight can let me feed back my line hand spontaneously and makes it easier to learn the double hauling.
I demonstrated and explained this to Paul when I did the cci test in Kul.
So I think I can't agree what Joan says "you lose rod load if you start forward too early, and if you start too late, you lose the feeling of line weight in the rod-tip", because this never happened to me.
I am truly sorry about my poor English, my native language is Mandarin.
Hope you can understand what I am try to talk about.
Cheers
Hank
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[GH] Hank,
Your English is fine ! Hopefully you will find answers in Jef Wagner's detailed message, below.
Gordy
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[GH] Jeff Wagner sends an in depth discussion on the various forms of "hang time". In doing this he offers a basic classification :
Gordy, I love how this group can take something that seems so simple and take it to the next level investigating every nuance possible.
Having spent a fair amount of time thinking about this subject (but probably not enough to understand as some in the group) in various aspects I think we can approach from a couple of angles (these at least make sense to me, especially from a teaching perspective):
1. hang time as it relates to the loop unrolling
2. hang time as it relates to the loop unrolled but energy still dissipating
3. hang time after energy dissipation and during the line fall
These simply help me describe and teach some differences in casts being made, differentiate between good and bad aspects, and make some general distinctions about energy in the stroke. The more i learn and teach the more I speak to the energy in the cast. Of course all of these could fall under one umbrella of line in the air after the stop of the rod and before it ceases motion or changes direction (hits the ground or begins the next forward stroke). The important distinction to me at this point is that this is after the loop has starting to form as it overtakes the rod tip.
Unless otherwise stated this all relates to properly executed casts.
1. hang time as it relates to the loop unrolling: This is the time when energy is dissipating as the loop unrolls. The line can (will) be falling at this point (on very long casts) but with energy still in the cast we will see a well formed loop. Even at very long false cast lengths where trajectory may change because of line drop often the bottom leg of the loop may be perfectly straight (I think Gordy as a pic that shows that may be distributed at a later date). This phase and the next phase can both see a sag in the bottom leg of the loop be lifted back up as the energy dissipates. I have seen this both before the loop unrolls and after.
2. hang time as it relates to the loop unrolled but energy still dissipating from the cast: This is one of the more fascinating phases to me as this causes the hesitation that we see where the line seems to 'hang' motionless. 'Tension' still in the cast. As Joe L. mentioned this is part of how we hover flies. And yes I do believe in the laws of physics but also believe that we need to use logic. The line is attached to a rod and there is energy in multiple directions. If after the stop of the rod the line began to fall at the same rate as a line not being cast we could not carry the lengths of line necessary for very long lines or observe very short casts maintaining a trajectory as the line unrolls. I do have a science background but don't have a fancy equation to support this. Only the power of observation and several 'trials' where we have dropped a fly line at the same time the loop began to unroll and the line dropped not linked to the fly line hit the ground first. I would agree that that this is partly from change in trajectory.
This is also where we get the often hotly contested pre-load (dare I say it, here comes another e-mail string!). But as the line continues to unroll and energy dissipates all of the weight and momentum of the line is seemingly pulling against the tip of the rod to the greatest extent just before the energy dissipates and begins to fall.
This (tension in the line) can give us the advantage of:
a. the line being completely straight; minimal slack (bottom leg of the loops 'sucks up', sign waves come out, etc)
b. pre-load in the rod - to me this is simply a slight bend in the rod which increases the possible effective forward stroke length because we don't have to get the tip to move as far before the rod begins to bend deeper into a more effective area (most noticeable in very long casts)
c. timing: to me this gives me a more precise timing opportunity to wait for the 'feel' of the rod bend and when the line completely straightens
d. hovering flies
e. spey type casts - we get the 'stick', rod stops moving energy is still in the line holding the loop position as we begin the next move, or if you are like me and not the best spey caster the line begins to fall because I wait to long, slack enters, I get too much stick and don't get the loop to unroll, which causes me to use too much power on the next stroke, etc, etc, etc. (of might not be that bad but sure feels that way sometimes!)
3. hang time after energy dissipation from the cast: At this point slack has entered, we lose control and it becomes (mostly) deleterious to the cast. we have waited to long, the rod likely has no tension against the tip, casting at this point may cause tailing loops or a longer casting stroke will be needed to remove the slack.
From a teaching perspective I, like others, teach the student good timing by having them make the next stroke just as they see the loop almost completely unrolled. Then by the time they turn and start the stroke the loop will be unrolled.
For maximum distance I am waiting for that 'hover', that point of maximum tension in the line as the line has unrolled and now all (or least the greatest % compared to almost any other time the line is in the air) of the energy is headed in one direction. This causes that bend in the rod and a slight tug, my signal to make my next forward stroke on a long cast.
I will defer to Bruce and Tim on the line stretch. But, I will say I really enjoy casting low stretch lines like Airflo that seem to add a responsiveness and more potential for longer casts and more control.
Great discussion. Now I will await the onslaught that is sure to ensue!
Thanks,
Jeff Wagner
Merchandise Financial Planner, Cabela's Inc.
G. Loomis Fish Team
Aquatic Biologist
Board of Governor and Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
Contributor, Angling Trade Magazine
Airflo Pro Staff
Oakley Pro Staff
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[GH] "Short answer", from Carl McNeil :
Hi Gordy
Are the members of our group not involved in any other Sports?
Hangtime is a common term in Skateboarding, Skiing, Snow boarding, Football, Basketball and many others - It simply refers to time in the air.
Cheers
Carl
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