Casting stroke & Stop

Walter & Group...

[GH] From Paul Arden (Followed by a brief string between us.) :

Great - I'm pleased you're still talking to Mark, Gordy. RSP is not always the point of loop formation by the way. If the haul finishes pre-RSP it's possible for the loop to form then. RSP is another of those terms we use but rarely if ever happens since the rod generally exhibits a small S-shape.

Paul...

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[GH] Paul...

Right !

One problem with folks understanding RSP is that it is not a point where the rod tip stops .... rather the tip simply passes through RSP on its way to counterflex.

As I think you know, we failed to prove that the loop always starts to form "at RSP" with a camera which only had the capacity of 100 FPS .... and I wasn't convinced that I saw that when I looked at Grunde and Jason's work with a 500 fps camera, either.

We have deceleration of the rod tip when the haul finishes which I see as a point where the rod will start to unload ..... one might look at that as part of the "stop sequence".

Aitor Coteron has shown us videos of hauls which start and finish during the casting arc yielding tails at various points depending on how soon they started and finished. At one point I even thought that the "wave" representing a tendency to tail and finally a tail might even be seen as an aborted start of loop formation !

I think you are correct in that the entire rod may rarely actually be perfectly straight. I, too, have noticed that very slight S-shape when the tip section looks straight but the whole rod is seen in profile in frames taken from high speed video as the loop appears to form.

Gordy

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[PA] Not only that Gordy, but sometimes the haul finishes at MCF. Basically I consider the point of loop formation to be the instant the fly leg turns to rod leg, but picking that is hard without video footage of the loop at some point later in the cast as it's unrolling - then you can travel back in time to find out when it happened. One thing is certain, loop formation is not only controlled by the rod tip, but also the haul.

Aitor's videos were very interesting. Alejandro - the caster - probably understands the physics of casting better than anyone I know. Unfortunately he doesn't speak English well and everything has to be translated!

I fished for Barra and Toga last March from Darwin. Was a great trip, I certainly don't intend spending too much time around crocodiles! Had a couple take poppers... :-))

Cheers, Paul

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>From Mark Milkovitch :

Gordy,

Thanks for this last post. Personally I find the discussions of alternative definitions interesting and informative. None the less I find the failure to provide basic definitions of key terms to students studying for the CI exam difficult to defend. I also fail to see how the inability to get consensus on definitions should keep them from being offered to the members of this study group and similarly interested people. Here are some thoughts.

Understanding the basic terminology is a good starting point for undertaking many areas of study. The FFF website provides a fly fishing glossary with definitions for the following nine casting related terms: Backcast, Curve Cast, Double Haul, False Cast, Loading, Mend, Reach Cast, Spey and S-Cast. This is hardly adequate for a prospective CI candidate.

The unaffiliated Virtual Fly Casting website Terminology Section, http://www.virtualflycasting.com/terms.htm, in my view does an excellent job of covering the core concepts. While definitions of this sort are simple, perhaps overly so, they effectively do the job. It’s much like telling the student “stop” as opposed to “rapidly decelerate” the rod.

The notion that there could be consensus on virtually any definition of anything is difficult to imagine. With respect to arguably the most commonly used word in the English language, Mr. Clinton notoriously noted that: It depends on what the meaning of the word “is”, is. Virtually all terms have accepted multiple definitions.

As you note in your post: “If the candidate's "definitions" or descriptions make good sense and he knows how to use them as he teaches, then I'll accept them.” Why isn’t the same approach being taken by the glossary committee? The tiny fraction of 1% of the flycasting fraternity that would take an active interest in this glossary is precisely the audience that profits most from being aware of those differences in definitions. Each different definition represents a different perspective for viewing casting. As the Surtees response to Lee’s comments show, presenting Lee’s perspective raised interesting questions and led to an alternative perspective, Surtees’, in a way which allows the rest of us to consider the interesting implications of the two perspectives. A consensual definition would do exactly the opposite; it would hamper rather than foster critical thinking.

Mark

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[GH] Mark,

I believe you have already seen my own "working definitions". They don't come out of my brain alone, but are modifications of the definitions of others which work for me until better ones finally come forth from the FFF BOG Glossary Committee.

For those who have not seen my "working definitions", I have placed them in an attachment. Bear in mind that these are in no way "official"....

Paul Arden has sent the definitions which are the product of the Sexyloops Board. To me, they make good sense, too. Another way of looking at these things. I see neither mine or theirs as the "final answers".

We have had some very productive dialogue with Paul and members of the SL Board. All this will, I think, shake out with a set of definitions representing different perspectives.

The Virtual Fly Casting website /Terminology Section link which you sent contains some good material. Some, I have trouble accepting as written. One example is the depiction of the CASTING CYCLE as one and the same as CASTING STROKE.

I Agree with Mark Surtees that it is not a good idea to have as large a Group as ours assume the task of coming up with our own list of definitions. I can tell you, that the discussions would be interminable.

Casting stroke & Stop - 3