Casting stroke & Stop

Developing a glossary of fly casting terms seems to be a logical endeavor to allow us to speak the same language as we discuss casting issues as well as for instruction.

We must realize, however, that there has never been complete agreement between various fly casting groups or entities on formal definitions for the Casting stroke and the Stop. Even the FFF BOG Definitions Committee (Glossary Committee ) has not yet achieved full consensus on these issues. Other well respected groups have indicated that their definitions may not rise to the level of perfection.

After years of work trying to gain commonality of opinion leading to firm definitions without success, I wonder if that will ever be achieved.

Perhaps this will turn out to be part of the wonder of fly casting which i see as "many different things to many".... an ever changing scenario pondered by scientists, dogmatic pundits, etherial authors, poets, the "Zen" folks, and fishers alike.

You have already seen Soon Lee's excellent and thought provoking presentation. When I saved this and sent it in an attachment, I didn't realize that I had included a heavy string of messages between Soon, Bruce Richards and me along with it.

Mark Surtees speaks well to this dilemma. His quotes are taken from Soon Lee's message. I highlighted what I feel to be passages of overriding importance in red . Passages preceded by [SL] are Soon Lee's :

Not least is our seeming need to have the various parts of a cast analysed out and laid end to end in a clear and distinct series of contiguous events. I don’t believe that this linear framework adequately represents what we do when we cast. I would contend that a cast is made up of a set of components which do not necessarily have discrete boundaries but overlap or overlay one another like fanned cards or transition between each other like spliced rope. There are many examples of this, the smooth transition from Sweep to Casting Stroke in Speys is a “spliced rope” and the “stop” is a neat example of the fanned card as it overlays the casting stroke.

As Soon points out,“stop” is one component that may be defined with clear boundaries. But, if the casting stroke ends at RSP1 and this is the point of line launch or loop formation or whatever we wish to call it, then the tip path after RSP1 is not part of the casting stroke, so….

[SL] “ The terminal portion of casting stroke after line launch always has convex tip path.” … Is not necessarily correct in the sense that I think Soon means it which, I’m guessing, is the tip path after RSP1.

[SL] “Subsequent rod and rod tip travel after line launch only affects loop size/shape. Using "casting stroke" to encompass two separate functions for two different purposes seems unnecessary and destined for muddled communication.”

I completely agree. If the objective or purpose of the whole casting stroke is to launch the line, or form a loop, or whatever, then “the stop” which is a period of rapid deceleration of the butt or hand is made in order to cause the rod to unload. If you lay one over the other then we have two separate words, for two separate functions, with two different purposes and communication is henceforth..unmuddied.

[SL] "Stop" is an important essential: its intent is to launch the fly line, not just to describe an eventual state of physical cessation of motion.”

The purpose of stopping is not IMO principally to launch the line but to permit the rod to unload in a controlled way. In theory the rod will unload and launch the line without stopping because the bend in the rod displaces towards the tip anyway as the angle with the line changes.

[SL] “We use casting stroke to govern the profile of the upper leg: SLP to throw a true loop, concave tip path for a tailing loop. We "stop" the rod to launch line: briskly for a narrow loop, gradually for a wide loop”.

I don’t agree, we use a casting stroke to apply force to the line in order to launch it, we use “tip path” during the casting stroke to govern the profile of the upper leg, we “stop” the rod to cause the rod to unload. A narrow loop will be formed by a short deviation after RSP1 from the tip path followed during the casting stroke and a wide loop by a long deviation after RSP 1, any deceleration at the butt will cause unloading whether it is brisk or not. Notwithstanding other factors outside of our control, adjusting the hand path after deceleration will have a far greater effect on loop size than the rapidity of the stop.

[SL]“In this regard, I am proposing that "casting stroke" be defined as extending from the start to the point when line is launched. "Stop" sequence begins with line launch and ends with rod at final rod holding position.”

Which brings me back to my comments at the beginning. I agree with Bruce..mainly…. J….that the stop sequence begins with angular deceleration at the rod butt. If this is the case then it must begin prior to RSP1 which is generally accepted, more or less I think, as the point of “launch” or loop formation. So, I believe that the stop sequence must overlay the casting stroke, not sit next to it in line.

Personally, I would argue that tip path after the stop is not part of the stop at all but a consequence of the material characteristics of the rod, hand path after deceleration at the butt and the amount of energy put into the system in the first place. In reality my “stop” stops pretty soon after it has started. Consequently, in the real world, wherever that is, and, if I were prone to worrying about these things, I would worry more about controlling when it begins than when it ends.

All this becomes more clear when, as you point out, these casting entities often overlap one another. We try to put them in sequence and they don't always fit. I love your "fanned cards" analogy. An epiphany !

This brings up questions thus far ignored. Do we really need hard definitions which are "written in stone on the mount" ??? Forever open to challenge as we gain new insights and new ways of viewing these things ?

Could we follow the lead of the creators of dictionaries where the terms are derived from the most common usage in the literature of the language ?

Do we need hard definitions ? ……no not really, but I guess I can see some of the arguments in favour from a testing point of view. My only concern is that if there are to be hard definitions that they should be generally useful and comprehensive. On the evidence of some of the proposed hard definitions I have seen so far I would be very, very unhappy if they were to form the basis of any future test that I might take.

Having said that, I’m not sure that your study group is the place to air some of the divisions we have had over this on other forums but if it came down to it I suppose I would get my Dukes up if sorely provoked….in the nicest sort of way of course… J

As Group moderator, I have no intention of our trying to come up with our own definitions or even sanctioning those produced by others.

When testing at a master level, I'm more interested in the candidate having logical explanations indicating a firm grasp of the principles of fly casting. If the candidate's "definitions" or descriptions make good sense and he knows how to use them as he teaches, then I'll accept them.

Working as interim chair and member of the FFF BOG Glossary Committee for years, and having us gain no consensus on definitions (though close on all but a couple of issues) I recommended this book to all our committee members :-

THE PROFESSOR AND THE MADMAN : A tale of murder, insanity, and the making of the Oxford English Dictionary by Simon Winchester, 1998, ISBN 10-0060839783 / 0-06-083978-3.

At one point I even facetiously entertained a "definition" of fly casting as : "An inextricable, kaleidoscopic compendium of events performed by a caster for the sole purpose of outwitting fish."

On a more serious note, I do think we need definitions which provide a common fly casting language for discussion and learning as well as testing. To that end, our efforts are worthwhile. To make these useful, they must be uncomplicated and in plain language so that students can understand them ... yet reasonably accurate from a scientific standpoint.

The Surgeon of Crowthorne: Winchester, Simon,A Tale of Murder, Madness and the Oxford English Dictionary, Penguin, 1999, ISBN 0-14-027128-7 .

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