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Walter & Group...
[GH] Dennis' questions :
A. Do you think you would begin with something different ?
B. Any suggestion on why I might start that way ?
C. What do you think you should do next ?
Dennis
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[GH] From Len Anderson :
Gordy,
A. I agree
B. Starting with the grip and line management before the cast begins is a good starting point , explain slack is bad.
C. The next thing would be abrupt stop with rod in a higher position on the forward cast.
Len
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[GH] Len.... I'm not so sure explaining the effect of slack is bad.............
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[GH] From Mark Surtees (Foot note is mine) :
Hi Gordy/Dennis
A. Do you think you would begin with something different ?
Yes, I would. With beginners I like to go through an off water routine of basic exercises which help to demonstrate the benefits of SLP, power application pauses and stops. I do this across the body because the caster is then placed so that they can see both backcast and forward cast and I can work straight lines and angles. It’s a steal from Joan Wulff who does something like this with her eights and straights, it is an excellent way to introduce practical control in small achievable steps and offers an opportunity to explain and demonstrate how and why various parts of a cast actually work.
In this case I wouldn’t think about going back to a PU&LD until we had some good rod and line control…when we do go back, the caster understands what is required and has a toolbox that they can use to self diagnose when they don’t have some big fat ugly menacing bloke standing over them threatening them with a stick… J *
If you are adopting a diagnostic approach then, arguably, in this case, the first step may have been to deal with grip. I can’t see it very clearly on the Vid but, if a caster is very wristy with a thumb up then a change to a finger up seems to often make it easier to get the rod butt tucked in a little tighter.
B. Any suggestion on why I might start that way ?
Yes, it will eliminate slack prior to the initial lift in a PU&LD, It also has the effect of shortening the amount of line that the caster will have to manage later in the cast. I think I may have asked him to just wind in a bit rather than retrieve.
C. What do you think you should do next ?
Using fault and fix tactics I would explain/demonstrate the trajectory of the initial lift and casting stroke and ask for a smooth back cast with a nice high firm stop and I would fully expect this particular caster to completely balls it up.
After that I might consider sneaking off for a prolonged period of private sighing while he weeps with frustration. The problem here is that although we can explain and demonstrate SLP, for example, the caster has had no practice in actually generating SLP, equally we can show a nice smooth application of power but the caster has never done this for themselves. So at this point, if it were me, I would go back to the exercises at A, work it up from there and keep the guy happy and moving forward.
Works for me but not everyone tackles it this way….I won a beer induced penny bet on this very issue once….
….what did happen next ?...
Mark
* [GH] PU&LD = Pick up and Lay down.
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[GH] Ckling Ling sent this as part of the solution, yesterday. Ling had not yet seen Dennis' last message with more information on this caster. Still, I think his suggestion has merit, because it speaks to something Jim Valle has written about and put into practice - getting the student to FEEL THE LINE/ROD LOAD :
Solution; firm up the wrist, start with circles, eights and straights before going to pick up and lay down.
Regards
Ling
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[GH] From Jim Chestnut :
Hi Gordy,
Holy Cow! I voluntarily stuck my foot in my mouth yet again! Talk about
lousy intuition. I figured the caster as someone who had just bought a fly
rod, tried it out in the yard for an hour or two after reading some
literature, and decided it would be better to get a casting lesson! What
is that old saying about opening your mouth and removing all doubt?
Well, I have faith in Dennis, but it's not going to be as easy as I thought!
Hi Dennis,
In answer to your questions:
A) No, though I would specify under the middle finger.
B) Yes. This will eliminate most slack in the line prior to the pickup.
This posture will also allow for a translation move as he moves his elbow
in towards the side of his body prior to and during the initial rotation.
This, in turn, will aid in gradually lifting the line off the water, and
enable a lower backcast trajectory as well as more time for a smooth
acceleration prior to the backcast stop. I saw no evidence of acceleration
at all in the video during his backcast.
C) Put his line hand in his pocket then execute "B" above.
As I told Gordy, Dennis, that video had me totally fooled!
Cheers,
Jim
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[GH] From Gary Davison :
Gordy,
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I missed the initial send out of this video, so sorry I am coming in late on this one.
The main overwhelming areas that hit me when I first viewed the video was in the following order.
I would tackle the major faults in this sequential order.
Rod Position,
Line control,
Rod movements (body) arm movement, power for the cast being made.
Timing.
1.) I would agree with Dennis regarding first step. Instill Rod tip position to start the cast. Down or near the water surface.
2.) I also agree with Dennis regarding second step. Line control get the line between the index or middle finger & cork grip, to secure good beginnings to the cast.
Note I would also input the following: When you move the rod tip to initiate the cast you must move the fly at the same time. Which means remove all slack prior to beginning the cast.
Reason for starting the cast in this manner is to instill proper form for the cast so you begin with a good foundation for the cast. Once you instill this foundation you can begin working on the other portions of the cast that need improvement. A sequentially step by step solutions to the overall problem. Focus in on one item at a time with the student until he or she has learned that task. Then move on.
3,) Body & Rod movement, would be my next big step to address. However I could not address this correctly until 1& 2 were implemented correctly. Six Steps comes into play here. (Line, Rod, Body) (Body, Rod, Line)
As Jim Bass stated in his review there is no stroke at all in this cast. Wrist casting only.
As Jim Chestnut stated, which hit the nail. His immobile elbow forward casting attitude.
This lack of arm movement promotes the wrist-only casting hence the convex patterns. Stroke would be the next step for me on this sequence of faults to address. Promote movement to obtain SLP for the casting stroke being applied with correct power and stops.
4.) Timing next for the pause needed on the cast when loop formation is obtained, when making the back and forward cast. Then time for line control (when to release the line for the shoot).
This is my overall view of addressing the faults.
All the best,
Gary Davison
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[GH] From Jim Bass :
Gordy, I only answered the first question here is the rest of my answers:
I think many times we just start teaching with the rod in hand and no explanation of terms and meanings in our Fly Fishing language.
I would start this fellow off as a beginner. Work through the essentials and a glossary of out terms. Work him through some pantomime of the back and forward cast and build on that. He has so many bad habits I feel you would save time by starting over.
Another interesting thing I have known but have not utilized it in my teaching is visualization. Golfers use this and some fly casting instructors do. I think this would be a good time to open up this can of worms. What is your take on visualization?
Best Jim
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[GH] Jim. That is part of what Mark Surtees has recommended in his message, above. I agree.
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[GH] From Eric Cook's deer stand . First I will include his statement from yesterday as he tackles this caster's problem. Note his changes below this as he gains more information from Dennis :
(Yesterday) The first thing I would do is have the student trap the line, even if it means wrapping the line around the reel. I would not correct any other fault without having the student cast this way a few minutes. Hopefully he will begin to get more feel for the rod loading.
The very next thing I would work on is his form. From the way he is casting I would assume he is a lifelong spin fisherman (hand forward, nothing but wrist and no/little movement of his body or arm). For this, I feel it is a critical time in this students "career" as a fly fisherman. Keeping his hand so far forward (and wristing) will only lead to fatigue. If this form is not corrected by steering the student to a more comfortable casting position, he may very well get frustrated and that rod might go into the closet and never see the light of day again. Then again, he may be the persistent sort that will continue to struggle, but never improve because he would not be able to practice well since that fatigue will hold him back. And that fatigue will probably turn into pain down the road. The short of it, I would work to get the student to bring his hand back closer to his body (work on the wristing later). I don't feel this is wrong (possibly teaching a style) since the form he currently is using will probably lead to his discomfort.
(Today)
Gordy
Back on a deer stand with good cell reception again this morning. Have already seen one small buck.
It is helpful (for determining instruction path) to now get some background info on the student. From the info from Dennis, I see that I did make some wrong assumptions for my original assessment. I too always try to get a little background info from the student such as; experience, goals, type of fishing they normally do, etc. to help tailor the lesson.
A: I will stay with my original first correction (trap the line).
C: This is where my incorrect assumptions may change the path of instruction.
When choosing the fault to correct first, I like to pick one that the student will get the most mileage from. For example, the one that will probably fix some of the other faults the student may have.
Although I would like to see this student get his hand/arm back to a position of comfort and control, there may be another way to fix this without even addressing it.
For the second fault to work on, I would choose the wristing issue. The correction may be as simple as having the student do a bit of ground casting along a tape to reinforce to him how that excessive wristing will destroy the cast. My thoughts on electing to take this route are; it should also improve the lazy stop, help get the tip path into more of a slp, get more of the arm/shoulder into the motion, hence smoothing the acceleration a bit and trajectory should also improve by the more controlled stop.
Eric
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[GH] Comment on diagnosis from Bill Whitebread. I added it because it speaks to Eric's message, above :
Gordy,
The one main thing that I have not seen anyone write about so far is, he is not using his upper arm or shoulder while casting. He is straight arm casting. He does sometimes use a little forearm but not much.
Bill
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