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Walter & Group....
We might never exhaust discussion on tailing loops !
I can't possibly send all of the messages which have come flooding in.
A few more entries :
>From Bryan Martin -
Hi Gordy,
My take on tails for what it’s worth.
The ‘tail’ is a traveling wave in the line, similar to a mend, but is placed in the line by the rod tip in what will become the top leg of the loop when loop formation occurs.
If loading results in a concave dip in the rod tip path early in the stroke and the rod tip rises and follows a straight line or convex path for the remainder of the stroke, the rod tip follows a path like this ~ with the rod tip traveling right to left on this shape.
If loading results in a concave dip in the rod tip path late in the stroke, the rod tip having followed a straight line or convex path for the first part of the stroke, then dipping down following a concave path until the rod unloads at the stop with the rod tip rising, the rod tip follows a path like this ~ with the rod tip traveling left to right on this shape.
The wave in the line resulting from both the above situations is a traveling wave and will propagate towards the end of the line, how far it travels depending upon flight time.
When the dip occurs early, the resulting line dip propagates backwards towards the end of the fly line as the all the line remains behind the rod tip until loop formation occurs. The propagation time is longer when the rod tip dip occurs early in the stroke so the wave or tail in the line travels further towards the end of the line and will be seen later and further from the caster after loop formation.
When the dip occurs late, the resulting line dip propagates backwards but the propagation time is shorter so the wave or tail in the line will be seen earlier and closer to the caster after loop formation.
If the rod tip path is concave start to finish then assuming the line does not collide with the rod, an inverted loop is formed. By suitably controlling the rod tip path, that’s what spey casters do to form their D loops.
I guess this doesn’t cover all possibilities but it does seem to agree with the early dip, late tail, late dip, early tail theory.
Sorry this is so wordy, Bryan
Bryan Martin - APGAI/STANIC Qualified Fly Casting and Fly Fishing Instruction
Devon Fly Fishing
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From Carl McNeil :
Hi Gordy
Interesting discussion on tailing loops. Here's my 2 cents worth.
It's important to make the distinction between the underslung loop (A loop that sees the fly leg of the loop fall below the rod leg) and a true tailing loop.
That underslung loop is common as Jeff and Chase point out, particularly so when casting distance. It can also be seen when casting heavy sink tips and shooting heads, more so if you have a heavily weighted fly attached. It's virtually unavoidable when throwing T-14 in the salt and is certainly not a fault. You simply cannot keep the fly leg up above and parallel with the rod leg given the amount of weight and resistance that is aerialized.
You'll also see that line crossover when observing expert casters throwing good loops with a minimum of power. The nicest casts I have ever seen were observed a few years ago at the Denver show. A particularly talented and good looking young chap was throwing a long line at one of the casting pools. His cast was almost effortless, and beautiful to watch. On his forward cast the fly leg traveled up from below the rod leg just after it passed his shoulder.
A few years later I met the caster when he came out to New Zealand to help test me for my Masters - it was Soon Lee.
It so happens that I was asked to describe and identify a tailing loop during my exam. Chuck Easterling drew an underslung loop and asked - 'Is this a tailing Loop?' fortunately I said no. We went on to arrive at what we all agreed was a true tail. The diagram showed the fly leg crossing the rod leg twice - something that has stuck with me and have gone on to confirm this using high speed video.
That said, what we've chosen to call a tailing loop doesn't always cross twice!
The distinction between an underslung loop and a tailing loop is difficult to define and it would be a very good one to get a clear definition on. It seems to me that the difference is in where the cross over manifests itself and the severity of the crossover. Tails (as in a casting fault) tend to cross at an acute angle and propagate out to the end of the line causing problems. Underslung loops tend to cross much earlier in the stroke and separate again as the fly leg approaches the loop face. Or at least that's what I've observed so far.
Underslung loops can of course lead to tangles and knots in the leader, but only if the two legs collide.
Tailing loops are not caused by the rod tip dipping below the 'straight line path' - this path is simply a convex tip path and a dropped rod tip simply creates a loop or large rounded loop if the deviation is large enough.
The requirement for a tail, and the action that does the damage is the tip rising up again during the stroke. The tip path is then slightly concave, and will usually see the fly leg cross the rod leg twice. The shape and size of the buckle in the line closely mirrors the actual path of the rod tip - entirely logical given what we know about tip path and loop shapes.
Given that point of view I believe there is arguably only one cause of tailing loops - And that is the rod tip dipping below SLP and rising back up again.
There are of course a myriad of actions that can be imparted by the caster to cause the tip to travel this path. Many of which have been listed is previous posts.
Here's a clip posted on YouTube where we track the rod tip path. If you scrub forward to about the 2.00 mark you'll see a traced tip path leading to a tailing loop.
The overlay that is drawn is not an interpretation. I placed a digital tracking point on the rod tip in post production and tracked the tip path frame by frame.
- Apologies for what might seem like overt promotion, but the clip was posted up prior to this discussion for an upcoming DVD release.
You'll see that although the line does not cross twice it is certainly heading in that direction. Perhaps more a function of the yarn rod I'm using more than anything else.
Cheers
Carl
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From Aitor Coteron :
Hi Gordy,
I have just read the rest of the posts about the tailing loop issue. Lasse is totally right.
When the caster makes a fault that induces the rod tip to dip and then to rise (in the same plane defined by the rod itself) a wave in the line appears.
That wave is similar to the wave we create when making a reach mend: that reach mend wave travels along the line as long as there is tension; the same happens to the wave formed due to a dip and rise of the rod tip, resulting in what we know as a tailing loop.
The longer the time available for the wave to propagate itself the farther away from the caster it goes. Of course this is the same for a reach mend wave and for a tailing loop wave.
All tailing loops pass beside the caster at one time or another. In that regard I find misleading to say that a tail appears closer or farther from the caster (or the rod tip), since all tails are just at the rod tip at a given instant. In order to clarify this it is better to distinguish between a tail that appears in the loop just after loop formation (early tail), and a tail that manifests itself way after loop formation (late tail).
So, if we make an improper application of force at the beginning of the casting stroke the wave we have just created has a good amount of time to propagate along the line before the stroke ends, and the resulting taling loop will appear well after loop formation.
On the other hand, if the faulty acceleration is made at the end of the stroke the wave has much less time to propagate itself along the line, so it appears just after loop formation. How could it be any other way?
There have been a good number of debates about this that haven't ended in any agreement so I decided to make some slow-mo video to prove my point. Slow-mo is key because the naked eye is incapable of seeing things that are happening that fast.
So I asked two fellow instructors to help me with this. In order to have a crystal clear visual reference for the observer to see at what precise point of the casting stroke the fault occurs I devised an unorthodox method: I asked one of my friends to make a cast and the other one to make a very fast haul at different points along the casting stroke.
This is what resulted when making an improper acceleration at the end of the stroke:
And this is what happened when the improper acceleration was at the beginning of the stroke:
Thanks to Alejandro (the caster) and Mark Surtees (the "ghillie") :^)
Best regards,
Aitor
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Aitor,
Very clear description and video demonstrations !
Had you done that with a burst (spike) of power instead of a sharp haul at the same time during the stroke, I'm sure the result would have been the same. Both methods result in improper acceleration (sudden acceleration which cannot be maintained ) leading to a dip and return in the path of the rod tip.
I think that settles the issue. MANY THANKS.
Gordy
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