AWAY / What's in a name ? - "roll cast" - "switch cast" / Practice

Walter & Group....

 

I WILL BE AWAY FROM MY MAILLIST CONTROLLER AND THE STUDY GROUP UNTIL OCTOBER 20TH.

(I'll be visiting my family on Long Island and fishing the Fall striped bass run at Montauk.)

Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Bill Kessler:

I am a little confused about the roll cast issues on the test.  It seems to me the distinguishing characteristic of a roll cast vs a switch cast is the static nature of the roll cast .   Since the test is taken in a variety of circumstances often without water the anchor of a double hand type cast is often questionable.  If the grass or surface is nice (smooth) the roll cast is relatively easy to perform, if not the line can tangle in the grass etc. making it difficult and the switch cast is even more difficult.  When performing the switch or any other double hand cast, utilizing a standard 8 to 9 foot rod, without water the motions can be made but there is no standard anchor and the approximation even though visually similar really leaves out a significant issue for all double hand casting namely the proper anchor.   Using two hands on the rod and a 13 to 17 foot rod makes for a very different skill set than performing the task with a standard 8 to 9 foot rod.

So my question is, what is the purpose of the test with regard to the roll cast and switch cast?

William Kessler

wk_eps@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Bill .....

 

Continue to read the messages, below.

 

Basically, the THCI and MCCI Testing Committee have chosen to look at the switch cast as one with more defining elements than the dynamic D-loop.

 

I think one reason for that is that whether one calls it a "switch cast" or a "forward Spey", it is a maneuver which many if not most instructors of Spey casting use in preparation for going on the teach the single Spey.

 

The purpose is to teach the principles of anchor formation/placement which will later be needed when learning the single Spey without the added dimension of change of direction.

 

This skill is needed whether Spey casting with a single handed rod or a two handed one regardless of rod length.

 

Gordy

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Will Turek :

Gordy,

I would argue that a switch cast is indeed a roll cast. If we follow

the spirit of the MCI exam, and adhere to the principle of parsimony,

we can define a roll cast as any cast that loads the rod on the

backcast with a loop of line formed underneath the rod tip and is held

in place by the remainder of the line anchored to the surface of the

water.

Is the switch cast dynamic? Not by your definition, which is

contingent on the criteria that there is no stop before the forward

cast. In fact, the longer the line being switch cast, the longer the

pause will be before the forward casting stroke. I think your emphasis

on the no stop of the rod before the forward casting stroke is

misplaced. The LINE is not stopping, once it touches you go. The

caster very may well have to pause (stop) to allow a greater length of

line to travel under the tip and touch down before the forward stroke.

I would say the criteria for a "dynamic" roll cast is one in which the

line is constantly moving. By that definition, the switch cast is

indeed a dynamic roll cast.

Further, the method by which the size, shape and speed of the d-loop

is formed does not effect the essence of the cast - as long as a d-

loop and anchor exists it is a roll cast by definition (mine that is).

Method DOES effect the efficiency of the cast. In addition, a

particular method of forming the D-loop may be contingent upon a

desired outcome. Ex. Bigger D-loop in the shape of a V would be a

preferred and efficient means of casting distance.

Last, the name "switch" cast is in itself an impediment. What is being

"switched"? Is not an overhead and roll cast, or for that matter any

cast that has a backcast 180 degrees opposite the forward cast, a

"switch" cast? If I'm forced to choose, I prefer forward cast. When

teaching, the visual created by naming the action serves to reinforce

the action itself. Also, using one term reduces distraction, that is

the necessity to distinguish between two terms for the same action,

switch and forward, used in different contexts. Third, the continuity

of use makes it is easier for students to generalize the action

incorporating it into the context of an entire sequence of actions

that comprise a spey cast.

Elliptical, lift... why is it that as instructors we actively seek to

impose qualifications where they are unwarranted? In that respect, I

would have to agree with your friend when he says, "I don't care what

you call it, just do it."

W

-------------------------

Will Turek

6165 Stow Road

Hudson, Ohio 44236

Great Lakes Guide N' Travel

Midwest Spey School

www.midwestspey.com

Steelhead Alley Outfitters

www.steelheadalleyoutfitters.com

Cell 330.807.4828

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Will.....

First let me applaud your position as an instructor who actually thinks deeply about casting parameters.  Our very best teachers do just that.

When coming up with definitions it is almost as though we are finalizing composite opinion with rock solid consensus.  I have come to the conclusion after spending three years on the FFF CBOG Glossary committee including a stint as interim chairman, that this is close to impossible.  So, now, I'm starting to think in terms.... not of definitions as written in stone on the mount, but descriptions or, better yet, working definitions .   Those which are simple to understand and reasonably accurate though perhaps not fully in accord with the disciplines of science.  Those which are sufficiently pliable as to be easy to refine as casting knowledge advances.

I read a description of the writing of the Oxford English Dictionary which took almost a lifetime.  Their "committee" adopted a method of deriving definitions on the basis of many years of common use in the literature.

With that in mind, I'm glad you used the terms, "....we can define",  "...your definition" and "If I'm forced to choose".  This indicates to me that you know exactly what I mean.

On the issue of the term STOP.   I should have stated that I meant the "stop" of the static back cast D-loop.

Frankly, I think your "definitions" have merit.

I like your last sentence.

Having said all that, I realize that we need some commonality of working definitions or descriptions for the purpose of intelligent conversation as well as for use on casting exams.

As I understand it, the members of the MCCI Testing Committee have chosen to use the working definitions offered by the Two Handed Casting Instructor Committee headed by Al Buhr.

 

Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Al Buhr:

 

Will this help? Definitions for Roll and Switch approved by the THCI com.

Key points underlined:

This has been discussed in the Master committee,,,  as well in the Monday Master workshop..

 

Al

 

Roll Cast

 

A cast made by the rod dragging the line back to form a shallow D-loop with the fore cast having an aerial forward loop. Effective to remove slack or raise a sunken line to the surface, prior to starting a cast.

 

Switch Cast

A cast with no change of direction; formed by lifting and sweeping the line back above the surface and repositioning to an energized D-loop, followed by an aerial forward loop. This is an essential cast for learning lift movements, anchor points and energized D-loop formations.

Single Spey Cast

 

A change-of-direction cast that repositions the fly and D-loop to the upstream side of the caster in a continuous motion, and safe to use with an upstream wind.

 

 

---

                                                             How Instructors Practice

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Troy Miller :

Wow, now I REALLY feel guilty.  To be brutally honest, I almost never practice, in the sense y?all are describing below.  My practice usually involves:

 

Teaching, whether groups or 1-on-1 at the beginner, intermediate, or advanced level.  As you noted Gordy, I learn most of my very most effective teaching techniques while instructing.  Occasionally I even learn something profoundly new about flycasting itself.  There?s always a reward if you consciously look for it.

 

Typing messages such as these on various forums and mail lists.  This forces you to formulate your thoughts with utter and direct clarity, which will help you later when you?re teaching/presenting.  

 

I also practice a bit when I?m trying out a new rod, to see what it is capable of (in my hands, I know it may be capable of much more in other hands?)

 

Mainly, I practice by going flyfishing.  This is where I develop and maintain my skill.  I?m highly motivated by the activity of fishing; I would never be interested in casting for the pure sake of casting.  That?s just not me.  With all respect to those who do love to cast for casting sake and have no desire to fish.  To each, her/his own.

 

Not a very structured practice program, I know, but it?s me?  J

Regards,
Troy Miller
Baker Oil Tools
281-638-0176 cell

---

Troy.....

No guilt trip needed, here !

The key statement in your message is, "This is where I develop and maintain my skill ".

We've all heard statements to the effect that when we fish, we are not really practicing.  I take issue with that, and I see you do so as well.

Granted, when a fish is spotted and I'm about to make the presentation, I just "do it" without thinking much about the mechanics of my cast unless there is an especially difficult method required.  The fish has my attention most of the time.

If I've made a bad presentation and fail the hookup, I try to figure out just what went wrong and try to do it differently even pretending that the fish is still there.   That is practice.

In between bone-fide presentations, especially when opportunities are widely spaced I practice casts with a purpose in mind with each and every one.  That is practice.

While trying to do better with my "other hand" casting, I'll often make mock presentations that way.  Once in a while, I'll even catch a fish when doing that.  This also gives me practice retrieving and fighting fish using the non-dominent hand.

Now back when I was preparing for the MCCI exam, I realized that this simply wasn't nearly enough..... but for maintaining our proficiency, practice when fishing is one way of doing it.

Gordy