Teaching by "feel" / SLIDE & DRAG / LIFT

Walter & Group....

Note the attachment.  This is an article written by Jim Valle on teaching line control by "feeling".  Comes close to the direct teaching methods we've been discussing.

Gordy

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From Jim Valle on SLIDE & DRAG:

Gordy and Group,

 

Sometimes it is the light that lets you see things in a new way, sometimes it is the semi-consciousness of early morning,

Hopefully it is more often our openness to new thoughts as part of our search for more understanding.

In this case all of the above and a couple words.

 

I was reading Tony  Loader's comments and Gordy’s comments early in the am… and something dawned on me

If slide and drag are combined in the first part of the stroke…. ( and I believe friction is enough to tension a good backcast)

                Then slack is removed and the casting system is tensioned by the drag…

                                Then the slide move, being flat (and here it comes) actually prevents translational rotation (premature, ineffective rotation) … and thus allows maximum                             rotation at the end of the stroke.

And that’s the true advantage of Slide Loading …. Removing the potential to waste rotation degrees during translation.

I think I said this before, this just seems better with less words.

 

Does that make sense to anyone? Hope it does it is still early to be pressing the send button!

 

 

Hope it does, it works for me…

Jim

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Jim....

I see the term DRAG as meaning a linear pulling of the unrotated rod in the direction of the cast.  It can be used or not for distance casting.  When used, it serves as a prelude to rotation.

Bruce uses the term drag just a bit differently.  He sees it as PURE LINEAR MOTION or PURE TRANSLATION.  In his opinion, DRAG ceases as soon as rotation starts.  To me, it is still DRAG even if there is a tiny bit of rotation mixed with it.

My way of looking at it is that translation can be pure linear motion or any linear motion of the fly rod whether or not combined with rotation.

A "super dragger" distance competition caster such as Rick Hartman usually has DRAG as pure translation with no rotation at all to start.... then he adds a bit of rotation to the translation followed by continued translation with lots of rotation and ends with mostly rotation with a small amount of translation always admixed.  His translation is accomplished by:  1. Forward movement of the hand/rod.  2. Body movement forward in the direction of the cast.  3. A step and/or  jump forward.

I look at SLIDE as the slow "giving back" of line as the cast is made, ie. SLIDING THE LINE BACK THROUGH THE GUIDES AS YOU CAST.  (Some have used the term SLIDE as a synonym for DRAG., but I don't.)

When you elect to slide line back through the guides as you DRAG, you negate some of the effect of DRAG to achieve momentum and to overcome the inertia of the fly line at the start of the cast.

If the caster actually slides line back through the guides at the same speed as DRAG, then DRAG would be practically useless .... so the trick is to either use no SLIDE or to use it to help smooth out the operation by having the speed of the slide be less than that of the DRAG.  (That would be slow, indeed, since the fastest draggers can't go much beyond 5m/sec.  Most have been measured at 2 - 3 m/sec.)

When DRAG is limited to pure translation, I see that it does delay rotation thus eliminating less effective "premature" slight rotation. This places effective rotation into a smaller segment of the fly cast leaving less time for mal-tracking and greater opportunity to maintain an almost straight line path of the rod tip, ergo a tighter loop.

Gordy

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 I hadn't planned on re-visiting the subject of DRAG INDUCED LIFT, but can't resist sharing this study by Chase Jablonski.               Gordy :

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Hi Gordy,
 
I trust your trip went well. I don't expect you to bring up the lift debate on the group again, but I'm interested to hear your opinions.
 
In an effort to determine the significance of drag-induced lift on fly line hang time, I opted for some real-world observations. In near windless conditions I videoed casts: 30ft without shoot, 100 ft without shoot, 100 ft with shoot.

I've linked to the videos of a couple casts below. Here are the findings. * indicates uploaded video. First value is video time (insignificant for you), middle value is casting speed and trajectory, last value is frames until the end of the flyline touched the ground. Camera shoots 30fps.

100 ft with shoot

104 - 55 frames
*42 - 70 frames

100 ft without shoot

131 - 55 frames
*150 - 58 frames

30ft without shoot

46 - med - 47 frames
50 - med - 48 frames
103 - up med - 58 frames
114 - fast - 27 frames
116 - down fast - 21 frames
121 - fast - 33 frames
138 - slow - 48 frames
142 - slow - 49 frames
145 - slow - 42 frames
*159 - med - 50 frames
*202 - up slow - 60 frames

http://www.vimeo.com/4876202
http://www.vimeo.com/4876322
http://www.vimeo.com/4876340

If you download the videos (link near bottom, you may need a membership) you can view them frame by frame.

If drag-induced lift were a significant factor in loop hang time I would expect to see a substantial change in hang time between the 30 and 100ft casts, which is simply not there. I recognize the limitations of this experiment, considering my sample is relatively small and measurements are not extremely precise. Nevertheless, it's appears to me that lift may be a relatively insignificant factor in loop hang time.
 
A further experiment I would like to do is to drop a length of straight stretched line from casting height (about 14ft). Unfortunately I haven't found a willing participant with two tall ladders! I would not, however, expect to find much of a difference in hang time from the previous tests.
 
What are your thoughts?


Cheers,

Chase
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Chase...

 

Nice study !

 

I studied these carefully and have come to the same conclusion that you did.... the "lift" effect having little true effect to prolong hang time !

 

Gordy

 

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COMMENT:  Skin drag would remain about the same regardless of the shape of the loop.  FORM DRAG would be a function of loop shape.  This study didn't address the effect of loop shape, so I can't comment on whether or not a change in loop shape would have made much of a difference.

Gordy

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Attachment: Line Control... Feeling it .doc
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