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  • Roll-Spey Back Loops / Cold practice + fishing /Acceleration



    Walter & Group....

    Al Buhr has crafted a detailed and thoughtful discussion on Roll/Spey back loops.  I've included this in an attachment.  I think is worthy of archiving .... certainly printing it out for careful study.

    Gordy

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                                                                           COLD PRACTICE/FISHING

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    Troy Miller fishing the Arctic :

    I couldn’t open the pic of Bob practicing up north, but here’s a pic from a couple years ago flyfishing the Arctic Ocean near the mouth of the Put River, north of Deadhorse, AK.  I think it had warmed up to like 15 degF so one of my buddies that I was teaching to flycast wanted to go out and try for some of the migrating Arctic char that run the rivers here on the North Slope.  I don’t think we caught any that day, but we have caught a lot over the last few years…

     

    Regards,
    Troy Miller 

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    Troy..
     
    Thanks for the picture.
     
    I've caught those migrating arctic char.  They are beautiful in their spawning colors !!!!!!!!!!!!  Some have said that they are really sea run Dolly Vardens ......I'll bet DNA testing would prove otherwise.
     
    I'll try to send Bob's pic by attaching to this one.  Obviously, he's practicing .... not fishing.
     
    Gordy
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                                                                 ACCELERATION - "STOP"
     
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    From Kirk Eberhard:
     

    Hi Gordy,
        Two hand group member Bob Pauli brings up an interesting subject. He watched some two hand distance competition at the recent Spey o Rama in San Francisco.
        His claim, some two hand distance casters do not stop or decelerate the rod during the cast. These folks release the shooting or running line at a point that achieves the desired trajectory. The forward casts begins with the rod almost horizontal behind and finishes almost horizontal in front. Is it possible to form a loop without a deceleration and release the line before RSP? Bob and others took some video in order to look at this but did not have any results yet.   
        Kirk
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    Kirk...
     
    One of our physicists (Server Sadiki) is coming out with a paper on this stuff.  Basically, he has pointed out in our group messages that this can happen if the caster simply ceases to accelerate.
     
    While an imperfect analogy, I look at the catabault which can launch a rock with no defined "stop". 
     
    Much more on this at a later time as we try to distill this down to KISS principles.
     
    Gordy
     
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    From Mark Sedotti :
     
    Smooth acelleration is extremely importent, but it has to be smooth at the OPTIMAL SPEED of acceleration for the outfit you're using. This is different for every outfit you cast too.
     
    Once you get that optimal (speed of) acceleration for the loading stage (which is hard enough to fine tune - and most all casters can improve here) then you also have to get the (the VERY best casters get) optimal speed of acceleration for the unload. And this must be be done VERY smoothly too. This is so hard to fine tune because it's usually such a short motion through such an extremely small time frame. Near the end, the hand is moving through such a short movenment, and arc, and this must be done at the "right" accelerated speed. It really isn't just stopping the rod tip, or stopping the rod. It's much more than that. It's true control of the tip for the "second stage of ACCELERATION", and it takes such precise muscle control.
     
    Mark
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    Mark also sent this message.  He'd sent it a few days ago, and I accidentally erased it and couldn't retrieve it, so I asked if he'd re send :
     
    Hi Gordy,
     
    I just want to say something about how and why I haul, and it's relationship to tracking and what else.
    I've simply found this stuff out through lots of casting.
     
    When I'm casting at my best I feel a certain amount of resistance ( It's a LOT of resistance too - I often call it "max" resistance- and it's constant (the same, unchanging degree of the  resistance throughout the entire stroke) and consistent from the point right after I start the load to the point the rod tip stops at the end of the cast).  Again, I feel this same resistance unbroken from beginning to end.
     
    When I feel it, and I've "got it" I know that I'm tracking perfectly straight ( I don't have to think about tracking), and that I have optimal speed of acelleration for the entire cast too. And I can't BUT be smooth throughout the stroke as well. The presence of this resistance is the indicator of all this.
     
    Hence, I haul by feel. I haul to keep this resistance steady and unchanged. I haul unconsciously, sometimes at different times during the cast (than I'm "supposed" to) - at least I'm told I do -, and I use different length hauls all the time too. All to keep that steady "optimal" resistance. I'm unconscious about the haul's lengths too. They will usually range from no haul, to a half inch thumb movement, out to about a two feet long pull. It varies to keep that optimal resistance with different outfits and lines.
     
    When I'm casting at my best, I'm really casting by feel. When it all "feels" right I've got everything integrated very well. 
     
    All My Best,
    Mark
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    Mark...  Controlling tension/resistance with the haul is a new concept for me.  I'll try to pay attention to that !

    Gordy

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    By the way:  Dickey Sisemore and I were out fishing on the flats in 30+ mph winds.  I practiced my into-the-wind casts.  Sure helped my back casts !  Going from a floating line to an intermediate, I could add a few feet more to my distance, but never got more than 50'.

    We tried the new polyethylene co-polymer jacketed clear Cortland line. (Not PVC or Polyurethane.  A nylon mono core.)  Super slick.  This is a crystal clear (in air) floater WF.  Not the best in high winds because it has low density.  This makes it float high, but yields mucho wind resistance because of its increased diameter. 

    When wind lets up, I'll go down in the water and check its viz there.  (My father, Pop Hill,  would often swim with the flies he designed and tied to see what they would look like down in the water.)

    Gordy

     



     
     

     

     

    From: Al Buhr [twobuhrs@xxxxxxx]
    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:29 AM
    To: Gordy Hill
    Subject: Roll/spey Back-loops

    Re: Back loops of Roll or spey type cast.

     

    First some notes and clarifications. The following are observations within my use and as well, observed used by other casters/fishers. I will detail some differences of two specific methods, which in my opinion, is the inner core to back-loops. Having an option to contort or skew a cast (back-loop) greatly widens fishing opportunity, especially in popular rivers where easy access areas are often over fished. However, for some enthusiasts, a cast is bound by ridged rules, partly based on mechanics (within that method) and instilled by the reluctance to test boundaries, or to seek different ways.

     

    In a single-hand overhead cast there are no absolutes; back-loops and front loops can change in size, shape and plane. The ?why and how? to a cast is guided by the presentation or situation. In the same regard, a method or style in which a single-hand overhead is created can shift how a cast can best perform within a series of related tasks.

    In common, a Roll or spey-type cast there is no absolute to a back-loop (D-loop). The back-loop shape, depth, plane, and the level of energy applied at points of back-loop formation can all vary. The control of a back-loop (shape, plane, energy) is similar to the forward cast of a single-hand cast. For example, in a single-hand cast, the forward cast can be over-powered, under-powered, or skewed out of plane to create a desired affect or presentation. Likewise the back-loop (shape, plane, energy) can shift form, allowing the cast to fit within the confines of the situation. However, how and to what degree a back-loop can be altered is limited to the constraints of the casting method.

     

    I have observed two distinct methods in forming a roll or spey-type cast; the Straight-line and Constant Tension. Each effective, and interchangeable (to a degree). To compare these two methods envision an overhead cast with parallel loops (Straight-line); verse a Belgium or elliptical type cast (Constant Tension). The Straight-line method, partly due to the ?stop? (intentional commitment of directional energy), has limitations and is best to abide to the 180-degree principle. In the Constant Tension, a distinct stop is not employed in the back-stroke, allowing the back-loop to be altered (as to the shape, plane, or energy levels).

    The Straight-line is very efficient mechanically; where as Constant Tension is very efficient within the fishing situation, one element of the core differences. Straight-line enthusiasts can become entrenched with absolutes and may loose sight of a primary objective; presenting a fly with no or limited back space area.

     

    I believe it is import to acknowledge and distinguish Straight-line and Constant tension as separate methods; they are as two different faiths. Guiding rules or fundamental principles that encompass each method (Straight line or Constant tension) have many common points. However, Constant Tension allows a degree of latitude in bending of fundamental rules. Those with a strong belief in the Straight-line tend to have misperceptions of the latitude in Constant Tension; very understandable in the ?flat world? view of a cast.

     

    For instance, in an overhead cast, having loops near parallel places opposing energies (back-to-forward casts) in close alignment. A Straight-line roll/spey cast attempts to mirror this notion with use of a lineal lift and ?V?-loop. Due to the ?stop? and rod unlading to straighten (reloading in the forward stroke), only minor adjustments can be made. In Straight-line, all subtle variances need to stay within or near the casting plane. A good method, within its area of operation.

     

    Constant Tension has more latitude to how rod bend is developed. A cast can have opposing energies in 180 alignment, done without pause to capture maximum pre-load of counter-flex. However, less focus need be on opposing energy (180-degree); rather a shared focus on line positioning, then rod loading into the forward stop. Maintaining alignment of the derived energies and track is ideal, however the surroundings of the fishing situation can have constraints. A cast becomes radical as it strays from the 180-degree; the more radical it becomes, greater is the level of difficulty. Difficulty, as in maintaining smooth increase of developing energy; some instances will require a steep or high rate of applied effort to attain sufficient rod bend; all within the allowed room. Ultimately, it is the increase of tension between the cork (rod butt) and trailing fly line that creates rod bend.

     

    The Straight-line method utilizes a pause (the cork momentarily stationary allowing the rod to straighten) during the redirection (back-to-forward stroke change), this allows the leader/fly to fall into position, the anchor point.

    Constant Tension utilizes the flex or ?lag? of the rod upper sections to follow as the butt shaft is driven back-up-around (circle-up) to make the redirection; the faster the rod action (butt shaft), the faster the natural tempo, the quicker the redirection. The redirection does have a ?pause?, momentarily, when the rod rotates from back-to-forward travel, yet the line is tensioned by the continual pull of the ?lagging? rod tip straightening. In Constant Tension the leader/fly is intentionally driven to the anchor point, either by a shallow dip following the lift or a vertical drive during the rod redirection into the forward cast (action:reaction).

    Anchor placement is important in both methods; the leader and fly should be aligned in plane as the rod shaft crosses vertical. Constant Tension, by continually pulling the anchor taunt, will/can move the original placement. This will allow the anchor to be first placed skewed to enhance the grip, then forced aligned (as a consequence) during rod loading (useful technique with fast sinking tips in limited space).

     

    The Straight-line prefers to drive a high level of energy into to back-loop formation, accompanied with a minimal amount of line anchoring. Enthusiasts utilize the anchor to trap the leader and tip of the line; then, focusing rod loading by pulling forward against the momentum of the back-loop.

     

    In Constant Tension, the lower leg of a back-loop can be made at various levels of energy, since rod loading generates from the back-loop momentum and the resistance of the anchor placement. Coming into a back-loop formation with low energy can allow more control of the loop (compressing or skewing). A low energy back-loop will be followed by a strong ?circle-up? and drive into the forward cast, pulling hard against the anchor. In a high energy back-loop the redirection is made at near full counter-flex to capture maximum rod bend (pre-load) and momentum. Following the redirection, the forward stroke pulls hard against the anchor. The ability to redirect in a manner that tensions the anchor, forces greater grip and will attain greater rod loading.

     

    With Constant Tension, loops can be skewed out of plane to a degree. The extreme edge in skewing out-of-plane is limited to the rod shaft, when crossing vertical (forward stroke), must track in plane with the forward cast (both track and generating energy). In other words, during rod loading (greater translation) the rod shaft can be off-track (rod tip lagged), then as the cork (rod butt section) crosses vertical (or like position, depending on plane) it must travel in plane (the shaft now in greater rotation) into the ?stop?. Since the rod tip is lagged by the trailing line?s resistance, the rod shaft (more visible in slow action rods), momentarily can be contorted into a corkscrew shape during redirection. This radial load can be induced as a consequence of; rod/line path, counter-flex and load; or it can be intentionally forced (torqued). Slow action rods will have more of the upper sections ?lagged?, therefore the butt shaft can ?circle-up? to come forward while the rod tip trials with the following fly line (creating a more horizontal back-loop). Although rod shafts of any action will experience some radial load, it is most pronounced in slower actions.

    Often in confined situations, a reasonable stroke length is obstructed. To compensate, additional load can be derived by bending the rod shaft lengthwise and radial (torque twist).

     

    A frequent perception of Constant Tension is an elliptic curve-around move (the rod swings around 180 to redirect) done by the arms and body. However, a redirection can be made by a simple horizontal turn of the wrist (turn of knuckles in or out). Turn (twist) of the wrist (2-hand; twist wrists, one in/one out) allows redirection of rod path without the need excessive arm/body movement. Often in confined situations, body and rod movement is limited, hindering the cast. A wrist turn can be a very effective way to redirect while the rod is ?in load? thereby transitioning existing tension and creating addition loading forces (torsion). This application of effort will skew (corkscrew) the rod shaft since the rod tip is ?lagging?, while the cork is driving to a new direction/plane.

     

    For an exercise, try a single-hand roll cast (live-line). Begin with a deep energized back-loop, scribe the lower leg low near the surface, redirect with a ?circle-up? (do not pause). With each following cast shorten the back-loop depth, by turning the wrist to rotate the cork to shift rod angle form back-stroke to forward-stroke. Avoid premature rod rotation; it will cause the anchor to skip. Lead with the butt; finish with the tip. Continue to compress the back-loop, and induce a ?modified-loop?, as noted below (#2). In 2-hand, a compressed ?D? loop can become very shallow, adjacent to the casting position. Zero-back casts like ?Chip Cast? attempt to compress and skew the forming cast to orchestrate ahead of the caster?s position.

     

    Keep in mind the rod tip will follow the cork (butt section). The fly line?s resistance will lag the upper rod sections. During line reposition moves, back-loop formation and forward cast, direct the movements with the cork (butt section), the strong part of the rod. Slower rod actions can have a greater portion of the upper shaft lagged and as well have greater counter flex. These characteristics allow radial torque to a greater degree (naturally or forced).

     

    Constant Tension allows alternative techniques to be applied during back-loop formation and forward cast (single or two-handed). There are numerous variations and in the radical form, subtle rod movements done smoothly are key, as well as power application (as in: rate of increase, direction, and point of time).

     

    Some useful back-loops with Constant Tension

    1.       For ultimate distance, scribe a high energized lower leg close to the surface, when the rod reaches near counter-flex raise the cork (butt shaft, not the tip) with progressive strength, tracking a forward curve as the rod redirects to capture the pre-load (created by counter-flex). No pause, engage the redirection at or near full counter flex. The leader can still be aerial during the start of redirection, an applied force in the raise curve forward will indirectly create a reaction force, driving the leader down into the water. A very powerful technique (much like the Ness technique).

    2.       For distance with reduced back area, use a ?modified loop?. Scribe a medium-to-low energized lower leg low near the surface. Redirect forward without pause. Do so by: when nearing the point you wish to redirect, raise the rod butt vertically and curve with effort into the forward cast. The vertical rise to the cork (rod butt) is timed to fit the back loop into the allowed rear area. Tighter the situation, the sooner and with greater effort the cork curves into the forward cast. This back-loop has a hog back shape; think of it as half ?V? (bottom) and half elongated ?D? (top). When redirecting for back-to-forward, do not swing the rod tip around; allow the tip to lag and drive the cork up-and-around. The upward curve, done under power, introduces a centrifugal force and a action:reaction effect to tighten the back loop and trap the anchor. When an instinctive move, the forward rising curve will regulate to assure ample rod loading within each cast; an extremely effective fishing back-loop.

    3.       In confined situations (or very slow rod actions) the back-loop can be skewed out of plane. When done, line anchoring (contacting the water) should align (near in plane) with the forward cast. The aerial back-loop can be skewed, even bent or leveraged into two planes. The redirection (back-to-forward) must have a firm effort applied smoothly with even increase. The redirection will track a rising curve, like the ?modified loop? to tension the loop and strengthen the anchor?s grip (action:reaction). Complete the stop with a firm pull of the lower hand, pulling the rod shaft straight, thereby keeping the anchor grip strong; critical in extreme skewed cast.

    To test notions of Constant tension, use a slow action rod to better exaggerate the movements, single or 2-handed. A favorite is a slow cane rod over lined, even better with a DT. When casting slow the tempo, make movements deliberate, track a good path, and form narrow loops forward.

     

    Fundamentals to have in mind when using constant tension:

    §         Keep the line tight and moving:

    As an exercise, begin a cast with several spiral revolutions, starting with small ovals to progressively larger. During the multi revolutions, aim to the target and stop. The spiraling line will complete the established ovals, and then travel to the target (as per photo in my casting book, page 67. Two turn spiral, sink-tip line, weighted rabbit strip fly, minimum back-loop).

     

    §         During a cast, the rod is ?in power? or ?out of power?:

    ?in power? the act of tensioning the line to develop momentum and rod bend.

    ?out of power? the act of leading the fly line without inducing additional energy into the cast. This allows the fly line to track the direction of the last distinct generated energy, while still following the tip (in wait for the next command).