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    Title: Message
    Walter...
     
    As I re review the paper, I find no typos or anything which needs attention or "cleaning up"
     
    Problem was that when this first came to me it was partly encrypted.  The new copy wasn't.
     
    Gordy
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Walter Simbirski [mailto:simbirsw@xxxxxxx]
    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:58 PM
    To: Gordon Hill
    Subject: Re: RE:

    Sorry Gordy,
     
     I did get that message but you did mention some typos that needed cleaning up. I was hoping you
    could let me know where they were.
     
    Thanks
     
    Walter
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 6:47 PM
    Subject: RE: RE:

    Walter...
     
    I sent you a feedback message ... perhaps it didn't go through (????)
     
    Basically I stated that I thought it was very clear and understandable.  Perhaps not quite so understandable, however, for folks who have no science background at all.
     
    I like Jason's concept of a "release point" .... could also be called a "launch point".  This could also be instrumental in determining trajectory or "launch angle".  This can happen prior to RSP.
     
    I'm sure a caster would be unable to maintain the same acceleration of the fly rod through a 170 degree arc.
     
    Gordy
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Walter Simbirski [mailto:simbirsw@xxxxxxx]
    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:12 PM
    To: Gordon Hill; 'Server Sadiki'
    Subject: Re: RE:

     I know everyone is busy but I would like to keep this moving so if you have feedback on the draft...
     
    I've also had some initial feedback from Jason:
     
    "Walter--I'll be getting you two emails re: your last email. But first, let's start with something near the end...

    ***If I recall properly you explained by
    saying that the stop was there it was just that advanced casters are able to stop, causing the rod to
    unload, and then follow through so quickly and smoothly that it was almost impossible to see.***

    I have since transitioned away from that line of explanation (which was potentially misleading since I knew there was no "stop" (let's call it "ceasing of motion" in the traditional sense). I have been using the term "release point" as lay-man's way of approaching the transition from increasing to decreasing rod butt rotation, and the subsequent "release" of the line as the rod comes straight (which happen rather fast as you very well know, so the loop heads off at the "1 o'clock" but the rod butt continues to rotate, which also creates further work on the line throughout unload (before RSP), yes?). Make more sense to you that way (by "sense" I don't necessarily mean from an engineering standpoint, but from a lay/instructor standpoint of explanation)?

    I'll get the rest (it's much more, and yes, I'm interested in doing something with what you guys have going on) shortly!

    Jason"
     
    I'm currently waiting for the second email...
     
    Gordy - A question you may be able to answer - How long can a person maintain a high rate of acceleration on
    the rod? Is it likely that a caster can maintain maximum force throughout a 170 degree casting arc for example?
    I know that when throwing a javelin, for example, different muscle groups come into play throughout the throw with
    the weakest but fastest adding their effort at the end of the throw and the same principle would apply to a casting
    stroke but we have the added complication that the rod is a flexible lever. Other sports that rely on maximum speed
    being generated at the hand (throwing a boxing punch or shot put as examples) keep the movement to an arm
    length because hand speed is maxed out by that point so adding length to the motion (by reaching way back before
    starting a punch) doesn't result in significant extra hand speed at the end of the punch (I realize that reaching way
    back to throw a punch is suicide in a boxing match for other reasons but it also doesn't add much to a resulting
    punch).
     
     
    Cheers
     
    Walter
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 11:08 AM
    Subject: RE:

    Walter & Server....
     
    Well we can softly but firmly  beat them into submission with evidence based logic. ...... in a friendly way.
     
    Gordy
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Walter Simbirski [mailto:simbirsw@xxxxxxx]
    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 11:45 AM
    To: Gordon Hill; Server Sadiki
    Subject: Re:

    Server, Gordy,
     
    I think the approach of a technical paper followed by a supplemental paper that has a target audience
    of fly casting instructors whose background in physics ranges from basic high school science to first
    year physics makes great sense.
     
    Server - you are probably in the best position to determine if this is a good approach and, if so, what the timing
    for the technical paper and the supplement should be. Gordy and I both agree you, along with the graduate student
    you've told me about, are the brains behind this and we want to make sure you get the credit you deserve.
     
    We could start thinking about where resistance is likely to come from and what sort of responses
    we should consider. Personally, I have two major worries at this time.
     
    The first is the paper by Kyte and Moran and Bruce's response to that paper. 
    The information is observational only but it clearly advocates a hard stop and Bruce's observations
    agree with it. "Conventional" wisdom is that the hard stop is required for efficient energy transfer. I understand
    now that the hard stop is one method of controlling the path of the rod tip and also to provide a firm base for
    the rod to unload against but I expect this will be an area of controversy. I know that the work by Jason
    Borger and Grunde Lovoll is good experimental evidence against a hard stop that we can work with.
     
    The second area of concern I have will be the Sexyloops folks. They have been right all along in stating that
    a hard stop isn't necessary but then they've come to some strange conclusions after that and have almost
    become an armed camp defending those conclusions. My experience with situations of that nature is that
    they will take any affirmation of any of their conclusions (in this case the hard stop issue) and see it as
    proof that they are right about everything. Going to be a tough nut to crack...
     
    Just my thoughts for now.
     
    Cheers!
     
    Walter
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 7:48 AM

    Hi, Server....
     
    I have been studying your former messages from "behind the scenes" and having messages of discussion with Walter Simberski.
     
    Walter has shared some of his thoughts regarding the physics behind what we have loosely been calling "the stop".  He has helped me understand these concepts.
     
    Although I'm not a physicist or engineer, I'm beginning to get a much clearer understanding of what you have proposed to the point that I cannot find fault with your reasoning.
     
    The concept of suspension of acceleration rather than a true "stop" ( which would be cessation of all motion ) has generated a spark in my brain.
     
    At the same time, I understand the acrimony produced by others venting their vehement disagreements. I came to the conclusion that this occurred largely because they couldn't understand what you were proposing.  I also understand that you "bristled" because you couldn't come to terms with their lack of comprehension.
     
    Walter and I feel that your paper on this subject is needed and timely.
     
    We must realize that even casting instructors who are educated may not even have had a basic high school course in physics.  In deference to them, I think it would be a good thing for you to try to distill the concepts down to try to fit it into plain and simple terms ..... NOT easy, I realize !!!!!!!
     
    Perhaps this could be done as a supplement to your paper ????????? .... Walter and I will help in any way we can.
     
    Best,
     
    Gordy
     
     
     
    Gordon E. Hill, M.D.
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