Finger fly line cuts / Roll casts / Drift

Walter & Group...

I WILL BE AWAY FROM MY MAILLIST CONTROLLER FOR THE NEXT FEW DAYS ......  GORDY

Ally Gowans on finger "cuts" due to fly line stripping (Note his picture attachment) :

I accidentally erased his first message, but can tell you that he called attention to the finger cuts which are more likely to occur with fly lines with textured surfaces such as the Sharkskin lines.  He pointed out correctly that this can lead to infections.  His picture shows the injury clearly. I asked his permission to send you the picture and answered him as follows:-

Ally...

With many years of blistering runs made by large pelagics like tuna or big

tarpon under my belt I developed, perforce, great respect for what the fly

line can do to the finger at any moment on the strike as I strip.

Now, without thinking at all, I strip with the line going over both index

and third finger and I instinctively keep the line out of the crease on the

volar side of my joints.

For that reason, I didn't have a problem when testing the Sharkskin lines.

Some of our salty guys have learned to put a protective "band aid" over the

vulnerable area of the index finger. I do recommend that with the use of

any line for my friends when I take them out for these fish. Some fly shops

in salt water areas sell various types of finger protectors.

We are particularly interested in avoiding hand injuries, particularly when

handling and cleaning fish for another reason.....

These cuts or punctures can easily get infected by various organisms one of

which can produce a hand tumor or nodule which may require surgery as well

as antibiotics. This is called by the lay term, "fish tuberculosis" since

the organism (Mycobacterium marinum) is related to those of both bovine and

human Tbc.

May I use your finger picture to show the Group ?

Gordy

His answer:-

 

Hi Gordy,

Yes of course you can use the picture.

Those in contact with contaminated river or lake water may contact

Leptospirosis, a form of leptospiral jaundice known as Weil's Disease.

Infection of the human body by the organism may be through the mucous

membrane of the eyes, nose and mouth, or through cuts or minor abrasions of

the skin. Thorough first aid treatment of all wounds is important.

The incubation period is usually about 7 to 10 days. The early stages of the

disease may be rather like influenza, and the jaundice may be absent.

Best wishes,

Ally Gowans

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                                                    Roll Casting - More

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Craig Buckbee...  My comments in his text in bold blue italics :-

gordy,

first let me say that i EASILY could be misunderstanding some points others have made... but here goes:

vertical or side-arm, doesn't matter, good tracking helps the caster throw a the line far... hello choir. 

Agree.

If you make a standard roll cast with the rod not canted a bit to the casting side and in a perfectly vertical orientation, you stand a chance of being struck by the line or fly ..... particularly if there is any wind from the casting hand side.  This is why most of us teach to make the forward delivery of this cast with at least a slightly off vertical rod orientation.  I have no quarrel with doing this with the rod more horizontally oriented, though for some casters goodtracking is a bit more difficult to maintain.             G.

why use (waste) extra energy to rip line off the water that's laid out in a circuitous path? i can cast quite far with an airialized oval back cast but air doesn't stick nearly as much as water. also, instead of the fly having to be dragged around and be lifted in a curved path, it is pirouetted and cleanly lifted up and out.

As you know, I do teach that the static D-loop on either the bank or in the water behind the caster should not be formed in a wide semicircle (wide loop) for the reason that you point out very well.  Not only for that reason, but the fact that this wide loop even though static, represents some degree of slack.   

One trick to make an efficient long roll cast, is to flip line behind in such a manner as to have a long narrow D-loop on the bank as close behind the casting elbow as possible.  This doesn't work well when the static D-loop is placed on the water, because of the inertia produced by the water resistance.    G.

if my roll cast needs to be made with a vertical stroke, then i want the incoming line (water line, dead line) close to my body (more importantly, under the tip) to keep the most efficient tracking alignment. too vertical and an inattentive caster may get whacked by line + fly.  

I agree.   (Close, but not directly behind your body.)  G.

as for Ally's query, "Is there 'power' in a D loop or is there even any merit in trying to make a D loop quicker than is absolutely necessary?"

 

well, in roll cast 101 there is no power in the D loop. but, for a switch cast there certainly is. and if there is tail wind the caster will want to drive the line back with enough energy to compensate for the wind.

Yes.  I don't see how there can be any power in a static D-loop draped down from the rod tip or lying on the bank or in the water behind the caster.  As you point out, there is obvious power in a live line D-loop. It wouldn't be moving if not energized.    G.

craig

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On "D" and "V" loops by Ally Gowans:

(Note his attachment photos)

Hi Gordy,

 

Gary raises an interesting point about Spey and roll casts, namely the D and V loops, do two forms of loops really exist? A true three dimensional V loop I have never seen and I doubt whether it does exist. Just for illustration I’m attaching a couple of pictures resulting from my request that a very good caster show me a V loop. Nice and pointed from the side but from behind certainly not a V because the shape you see depends on where you look from and the loops themselves are really very similar! So just like the any cast the more horizontal the plane is the tighter the loop appears but it can be very wide looking down or from behind.

 

Best wishes,

Ally Gowans

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ally....  Not being an expert on Spey casting, I'll not comment further than to say that I'll observe these loops from vantage points other than from the side in order to learn.

Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

From Bill Hoot :

I like Ally's quote from Edwards and Turner, that a Spey cast is a change-of-direction roll cast.  Gary Davison's definition of a Spey cast is even better, it is an aerialized dynamic change-of-direction  roll cast [without a stop until at the end of forward cast].  

My personal definition of a Belgian cast [with single-handed rod] is somewhat similar, an aerialized dynamic change-of-casting-plane cast [without  change of direction] between back- and forward casts.  The casting plane is almost horizontal on the back-cast, followed by an upward-directed drift of the rod tip without forward "creep" toward more vertical position ,to allow a regular forward cast with the rod tip and line traveling in a vertical plane.  So horizontal back-cast, drifting the rod tip more vertically  the during the "pause" with-out applying power, then vertical forward cast.  I prefer this to the description of Belgian cast as a "constant-tension" cast , though mine may be  controversial description also.     Bill Hoot ["grey-owl"] 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

The so-called "Belgian Cast" has never been clearly defined, as I see it.

 

It can be made with a pause after the back cast OR as a continuous tension cast.  It belongs in the family of elliptical casts by virtue of the use of one rod plane (casting plane) for the back cast and a different one for the forward cast.

 

I use both methods when permit fishing where I need accuracy while fishing with a weighted crab fly.  If I've chosen a heavily weighted fly, then the fly can drop a bit too far if I have a pause .... that is when I usually use the continuous tension method.

 

Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

                                                                       Back Drift

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

From Soon Lee :

 

Hi Gordy,

 

I was looking through Al Kyte's "Guide to Better Fly Casting" and came across an illustration showing Lefty's back drift (page 86, figure 8-2). I interpreted 1 as end of back cast, 2 as end of back drift, 3 as repositioning of rod arm to begin the forward cast.

 

Using the illustration for discussion purposes,

A) In a forward cast if one makes a rod/arm maneuver with passive re-position of the rod tip as in creep, yet the resultant loop remains tight with parallel legs, is there creep? (The maneuver is non-productive but is insufficient to affect the end result).

B) In a forward cast if one makes a rod/arm maneuver between the end of back drift and the start of forward cast, yet the rod tip stays in position, is there creep? (The maneuver is the caster's style, is productive, and does not affect the efficiency of the cast).

C) Does the illustration show Lefty with creep?

 

I have the greatest respect for Lefty, indeed in awe of him. I am just intrigued by creepy maneuvers.

 

Soon.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Soon,

 

I think I can speak for Lefty when I say that he doesn't consider this as a true back drift.  His idea is to bring the rod tip back all the way and unload it rather than stopping and drifting back.  I didn't see the actual photo's from which the picture in Al's book was taken.  Assuming it is correct, I see this as a brief repositioning of the hand and fly rod during the pause.

 

In order to see this as CREEP, I'd have to be convinced that this shortened the available rod arc for the forward cast.  This doesn't appear to be the case.  That is why it doesn't affect the end result.

 

Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

 

 

 

Attachment: sore_finger.jpg
Description: JPEG image

Attachment: Vloop_question.jpg
Description: JPEG image

Attachment: Vloop_question2.jpg
Description: JPEG image