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  • RE: Teaching / Power / Roll Casting / QUIZ



    Title: Message
    Walter...
     
    I'll bet that will work better than the devices we've been using.  Problem with the tubular roll cast tube is that you need a loop tied in the end of the leader.  Problem with the one I designed ( a 1/2" pvc tube with a dowel glued inside it and a slot in the top for the leader) sometimes doesn't release the leader properly.
     
    I'd LOVE to try your idea !
     
    Best,
     
    Gordy
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Walter Simbirski [mailto:simbirsw@xxxxxxx]
    Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 12:34 PM
    To: Gordy Hill
    Subject: Re: Teaching / Power / Roll Casting / QUIZ

    Hi Gordy,
     
    On the subject of roll casting devices such as a weight, clip board, etc. I've just been experimenting with a device
    that has a V shaped opening. The pointy end of the V is pointed towards the caster. The end of the leader (with yarn
    or practice fly) is placed in the V. The yarn is held in place by the device as the user does his/her roll cast. As the
    the rolling loop passes the V the yarn pops out quite nicely allowing the line to unroll completely. I've just been using
    a piece of plastic for the device which is then screwed down to something with a bit of weight (such as a board or
    piece of plywood) so I could make one up and send it to you if you like. I'm working on adding rubber fingers rather
    than hard plastic in the vertex of the V. With a bit of adjustment the fingers allow the leader/yarn to get pulled through
    the V if the caster applies to much power (equivalent to ripping the line off the water and losing the anchor in an
    on the water cast).
     
    With respect to Kirk's questions:
     
    1. Define roll cast.
        A cast made when there is no room for a back cast.
     
        Additional information - uses an underslung loop.
     
    2. Must a roll cast be made with a "dead/static" line ?
        Depends
     
        Additional information - A static line roll cast is, by definition, made with a "dead/static" line.
        A dynamic line roll cast (aka switch cast) is not. It is generally accepted that the term
        "roll cast" refers to the static variety and that the switch cast, while similar, is not a roll cast.
     
    3. Does the roll cast have a back cast ?
       No
     
    4. Does a roll cast roll out on the water ?
      Depends
     
    Additional information: Where the cast unrolls is under the control of the caster. When executing
     a roll cast pick up, for example, the line would unroll above the water.
     
    5. Is the "distance" roll really a roll cast ?
    I haven't heard this term before. I will assume you mean a switch cast.
     
    No.
     
    Additional information - see answer to question 2.
     
    6. Are the delivery moves of spey casts roll casts ?
     
    No.
     
    Additional information - they are switch casts.
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Gordy Hill
    Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 9:10 AM
    Subject: Teaching / Power / Roll Casting / QUIZ

    Walter & Group...

    From Phil Gay:

    Gordy,
     
        Peter makes a great point on asking questions.  I do the same.  I tell my students when I get ready to discuss the basic priciples of casting that I am going to ask them what they are at the end of my discussion and demonstration.  Very effective technique.
     
       Ken also makes a point on power I also use and that is to pick the pace of the cast.  I also like yours of using less power.  I also use an auditory cue which is to say to the students casting too fast or using too much power,  "What is all that noise I hear when you are casting."  I then demo an essentially quiet cast except for Mel's "Schwit" at the ends of the stroke.  Then I ask the students to make the rod noise go away.
     
    Phil
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Phil....  I use Mel's "Schwit", too.
     
    I make up my rods with REC "Recoil" guides of Nickel Titanium, because of the salt.  These make a great deal more noise when vibrated by a moving fly line.  Impossible to get rid of all the sound, but as the caster tries to do that, it really emphasizes the idea of the use of less power.  (They really sing when one of those Sharkskin lines is used !)
     
    Gordy
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
                                                                    Roll Casting Practice
     
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
     
    Gordy
    When practicing roll casting on grass, I slip my yarn fly into the ring that holds my car keys. I always have them handy. A clip board can also supply an anchor,by clipping the yarn fly down as you would a sheet of paper. Some explanation to a  student is in order about the anchor concept, or you may be asked  as I was  "isn't it going to be difficult to pick that up and cast it? 
     
    When teaching the roll cast, John VanDalen's "word picture", No Power before Midnight " has served well to get the student to pull the line/rod tip into position before beginning the acceleration to the stop.
    regards,
     
    Tom
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Tom...   Yes.  That "no power 'til midnight" word picture which works.  As with false casting and delivery, it serves to delay rotation.  Bruce Richards has shown with photography combined with the use of the Casting Analyzer, that this is one way to gain a reasonably straight line path of the rod tip where it is most needed..... near and at max. rod load.  This results in tighter/ smaller loops.
     
    Gordy
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    From Gary Davison:
     
     
    Gordy
     
    Word pictures for teaching-- Roll Casting:
     
    Simon Gawesworth on the Video "Rio's Modern Spey Casting" uses a good visual analogy for teaching roll casting. He used an imaginary railway track.  Left rail and right rail that always run parallel with each other for ever and ever. 
     
    Simon touched on the following:
    Keep your roll cast on the rails. If your cast deviates too far off in a direction to where the rails are no longer parallel, then you will have problems making the cast due to line stick or pulling line off the water to make the cast.  Also if you cast with the rails crossing over each other, then real problems occur. Collision and a tangled mess. 
     
    If you are on the left rail track you need to cast down the right rail track,  If your on the right rail track you need to cast down the left rail track.  Your target and line position will dictate what rail track you are on.  This is easy for the beginner to visualize.
     
     
    All the best
    ï ï ï ï ï
    Gary Davison
     
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
    COMMENT:  Also see:  SPEY CASTING by Simon Gawesworth, pp. 36-50.
     
    For a different take on roll casting, check out:  CASTING WITH LEFTY KREH, Lefty Kreh, pp. 139-160.
     
    Also:  Jason Borger's, NATURE OF FLY CASTING, Jason Borger, pp.  153- 160.
     
    And :  Joan Wulff's FLY CASTING TECHNIQUES, Joan Wulff, pp. 18-22, 160 & 174,
     
                THE CAST, by Ed Jaworowski, pp. 53-60, 84-88, & 199-201,
     
                CASTING ANGLES, by Mac Brown, pp. 183-187.
     
                
     
    A great exercise for those studying for their MCCI exams, is the comparison of these ways of looking at the roll cast and the making of an outline with respect to:   a.)  Their similarities.  and  b.) Their differences.
     
    (The candidate can profit from using this method while studying  numerous facets of fly casting.... such as the different arm/elbow styles of known casting experts, etc. )
     
    Gordy
     
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Kirk Eberhard comes in with these roll cast questions.   Let's see how you do with them ....  I suggest two answers for each question ..... a. SHORT ANSWER      b. LONGER ANSWER (if needed)   G.
     
    Hi Group,
        A student or examiner might ask for a definition of a roll cast. This is not as easy as it might seem.
     
    1. Define roll cast.
     
    2. Must a roll cast be made with a "dead/static" line ?
     
    3. Does the roll cast have a back cast ?
     
    4. Does a roll cast roll out on the water ?
     
    5. Is the "distance" roll really a roll cast ?
     
    6. Are the delivery moves of spey casts roll casts ?
     
    Kirk